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INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE ADMINISTRATION
OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY ACT AND OTHER
INTERNAL SECURITY LAWS
USQ«r3€«-^. S'^f^TPF THE
'^ COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIAEY
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
ON
THE INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
PART 9
FEBRUARY 26, 27, 28, 29, MARCH 1, AND 3, 1952
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
B€€
34 r9b2 , <> I ^
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UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
88348 WASHINGTON : 1952
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
PAT McCARRAN, Nevada, Chairman
HARLEY M. KILGORE, West Virginia ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin
JAMES O. EASTLAND, Mississippi WILLIAM LANGER, North Dakota
WARREN G. MAGNUSON, Wasliiugton HOMER FERGUSON, Micliigan
HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland WILLIAM E. JENNER, Indiana
ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee ARTHUR V. WATKINS, Utah
WILLIS SMITH, North Carolina ROBERT C. HENDRICKSON, New Jersey
J. G. SouKWiNE, Counsel
Internal Security Subcommittee
PAT McCARRAN, Nevada, Chairman
JAMES O. EASTLAND, Mississippi HOMER FERGUSON, Michigan
HERBERT R. CCONOR, Maryland WILLIAM E. JENNER, Indiana
WILLIS SMITH, North Carolina ARTHUR V. WATKINS, Utah
Subcommittee Investigating the Institute of Pacific Relations
JAMES O. EASTLAND, Mississippi, Chairman
PAT McCARRAN, Nevada HOMER FERGUSON, Michigan
Robert Mobbis, Special Counsel
Benjamin Mandel, Director of Research
II
CONTENTS
Testimony of— P-^ses
Owen Lattimore 2897-3275
m
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 1952
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration
OF THE Internal Security Act and Other Internal
Security Laws, of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. C.
The subcommittee met at 2 : 30 p. m., pursuant to notice, in room
424 of the Senate Office Building, Senator Pat McCarran (chairman
of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Senators McCarran (presiding), O'Conor, Smith, Fergu-
son, Jenner, and Watkins.
Also present: J. G. Sourwine, committee counsel; and Robert
Morris, subcommittee counsel.
The Chairman. The subcommittee will come to order.
The witness will please rise and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are to give before this
subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary of the United States
Senate will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. Lattimore. I do.
The Chairman. Let me say at the outset as I have said before,
that pictures might be taken before the hearings but not during the
hearings. We do not think it is best to annoy or interrupt the wit-
nesses in their testimony.
When the Members of the Senate became members of this com-
mittee, both the chairman of the committee and the members of the
committee individually and collectively fully realized that we were
to be and would be the targets of invective and disparaging remarks
and statements. Our anticipation in that regard has been fully car-
ried out. The Daily Worker has devoted many columns to its con-
demnation of this committee, its members, and the manner in which
it has operated. Every Communist in America has taken opportu-
nity to cast invective and discouraging and disparaging remarks with
reference to this committee and its membership. We were fully ad-
vised before we undertook this task that such would be the course
and procedure. It is not at all out of line with the general procedure
of the Communist Party and Communists generally in the world.
For many months one of the great jurists of America, Judge
Medina, sat in trial during all kinds of condemnatory remarks and
insulting expressions. He dealt with the matter at the close of that
great trial.
A statement has been filed today by the witness. The ticker shortly
after noon announced that that statement was available to those who
2897
2898 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
saw fit to read it and it was at the office of the attorney for the wit-
ness. The press has that statement now. Of course, that statement
and its remarks are no longer privileged, as that term is known in the
law. The witness must be responsible for the full gravity of his
remarks produced in that statement. In that statement there is car-
ried out the same policy as has been carried out against this commit-
tee. Intemperate and provocative expressions are there set out and
elaborated upon.
This committee could exercise its rights. We could deny that state-
ment the right to become a part of the record. We realize that this
is a country of free speech, that that is one of our great heritages,
and we propose to see to it that it is carried out here today. Not-
withstanding the insulting and offensive remarks that appear in the
record, the statement made by the witness now under oath, he may
proceed with his statement with the understanding that from time to
time as he goes along counsel for the committee will interrogate him.
You may proceed, sir.
TESTIMONY OF OWEN LATTIMORE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, ABE FOETAS
Mr. FoRTAS. Senator, before the witness proceeds, may I identify
myself on the record. I am Abe Fortas, of Arnold, Fortas & Porter,
here as counsel for Owen Lattimore. Our address is 1200 Eighteenth
Street NW., of this city.
Senator, I should like to ask you to advise me of the rights and
privileges of attorneys. I have examined your record of these hear-
ings and I find that you yourself made the following statement on
July 25, 1951
The Chairman. What I said is not necessary. I can tell you in a
minute, Mr. Fortas.
I did tell yon privately and I will tell you now on the record that
you will be permitted to remain here. You will not be permitted
to testify and you will not be permitted to suggest answers to ques-
tions. When the witness seeks your counsel he will have opportunity
to obtain your counsel.
Mr. Fortas. Thank yon, Senator. May I ask whether I am per-
mitted to object to questions?
The Chairman. No, sir.
Senator Ferguson. Might I ask counsel if this press release was
issued from your office?
Mr. FoRTAS. Senator, I was out of town yesterday, and my knowl-
edge of it is that Mrs. Lattimore delivered copies to counsel to the
committee at 1 o'clock on yesterday, that thereafter copies were made
available to the press and copies were available in my office for mem-
bers of the press.
Senator Ferguson. So that your office in effect circulated this state-
ment ?
Mr. Fortas. Well, you are using a term with legal connotations.
Senator Ferguson. You are a lawyer.
Mr. Fortas. Yes, but I have not considered that question, and I
would not be prepared to answer it at tliis moment.
Senator Ferguson. Have you read the statement ?
Mr. Fortas. I have.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2899
Senator Ferguson. Did you prepare it or help to prepare it?
Mr. FoRTAS. I consulted with Mr. Lattimore while it was being pre-
pared; yes, sir ; and I consulted extensively.
Senator Ferguson. You knew it was to be used and circulated prior
to the reading of it in this hearing ?
Mr. FoRTAS. I certainly did, and I see nothing improper about it
and nothing unconventional about it.
Senator Ferguson. Did you have any knowledge about the facts?
Mr. FoRTAs. I have no personal knowledge aside from the usual
sources that a lawyer knows, of course, Senator. As you know, Sen-
ator, a lawyer never vouches for statements when he has no personal
knowledge of the facts.
Senator Ferguson. That is the next question, as to whether or not
you approved the statement. , .
Mr. Fortas. You know what a lawyer does, and you are a distin-
guished lawyer yourself.
The Chadrman. You could answer that question, Mr. Fortas.
Senator Ferguson. Did you or did you not approve the statement?
Mr. Fortas. From a legal point of view, absolutely ; yes.
Senator Ferguson. That is all.
The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. SouRwiNE. If I might intervene for just a moment before Mr.
Lattimore starts reading his statement, I have, I think, just three or
four preliminary questions. Have you identified yourself for tliis
record, sir ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I did in executive session.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Would you for the purpose of this public session
just give your name and address to the reporter?
Mr. Lattimore. My name is Owen Lattimore, and my address is
Kuxton 4, Md.
Mr. Sourwine. I think we can dispense with the other formalities,
Mr. Chairman, and let the witness begin with his statement.
The Chairman. Very well, Mr. Lattimore ; you may proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. Senators, I have asked for this public hearing be-
cause your proceedings have resulted in serious damage to my repu-
tation as an objective scholar and patriotic citizen, to the Institute of
IPacific Relations with which I have been connected, and to our Gov-
ernment's Foreign Service personnel and the conduct of its foreign
policy.
Mr. Sourwine. If the Chair will excuse me, please, we have here
the letter by which Mr. Lattimore asked for a hearing, the chairman's
reply, Mr. Lattimore's subsequent request for a postponement, and the
chairman's reply ; and if the witness will identify these two letters I
suggest that those should go into the record at this point, as supple-
mentary to the statement of the witness that he asked to be heard.
(^^Hi'ereupon the documents were shown to the witness.)
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. That letter of November 6 is your original request
to be heard ; is that correct ?
Mr. Lattuviore. I think so ; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. May those go into the record ?
2900 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
The Chairman. Those may be in the record.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits 459A, B, C, D,"
and are as follows :)
Exhibit No. 459A
The Johns Hopkins University,
The Walter Hines Page School of International Relations,
Office of the Director,
Baltimore, Md., November 6, 1951.
Hon. Pat McCarran,
Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C.
Dear Senator McCarran : It has repeatedly been reported in the press that
your subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee has promised that I will
me given an opportunity to refute publicly the false and slanderous allegations
that have been made about me before your subcommittee. Months have now
gone by without my being given this opportunity, and I am nov? informed that
your subcommittee will hold no more public hearings until January. This long
delay greatly increases the injury done to me.
I trust tbat you will notify me at an early date when I can expect to have a
public hearing. It will, of course, take me at least a week to make arrangements
and preparation for the hearing, and I should therefore appreciate as much
advance notice as possible.
Yours sincerely,
[S] Owen Lattimore.
Owen Lattimore.
0L:c.
Exhibit No. 459B
November 10, 1951.
Mr. Owen Lattimore,
Walter Hines Page School of International Relations,
The Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md.
Dear Mr. Lattimore: Your letter of November 6 has been forwarded to me
here.
The committee had been planning to call you as a witness at the convenience
of the committee. Now that you have, in the letter above referred to, requested
an opportunity to be heard, an effort will be made to hear you at your conven-
ience. You are, however, quite correct in your understanding that there will be
no more public hearings until January.
You will be given, as you request, at least a week's advance notice of the date
at which you will be called to appear before the committee.
Sincerely,
[S] Pat McCarran.
Exhibit No. 459 G
The Johns Hopkins University,
the Walter Hines Page School of International Relations,
Office of the Director,
Baltimore, Md., December 20, 1951.
Hon. Pat McCarran,
Chairman, Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security,
Washington, D. C.
My Dear Senator McCarran : On November 6, I wrote you to inquire as to
the date when your subcommittee might afford me a public hearing, and on
November 10, you replied stating that an effort would be made to hear me at my
convenience, but that there would be no more public hearings until January.
You also stated that I would be given at least a week's advance notice of the
date on which I would be called to appear.
You may remember that I appeared before your subcommitteee on July 13 in
response to your subpena.
I have been invited to lecture in London before the Royal Geographical Society
and the Royal Central Asian Society. The lecture before the Royal Geographical
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2901
Society has been scheduled for January 14. The lecture before the Royal Central
Asian Society was scheduled to commence on December 19, but this date has been
postponed because of a delay in my date of departure from the United States.
Mrs. Lattimore and I plan to proceed to Loudon by air, leaving here on Decem-
ber 27, and to return about January 20. I shall be available to your committee
at any time thereafter, but I should like, as I indicated in my letter of November
6, to have a week's notice of the exact time when I am to be called so that I may
complete preparations for my appearance. This would mean that I could appear
before your committee at any time beginning January 28.
I continue to be eager to testify at a public session of your committee, and I
hope that my trip to England will not inconvenience you.
Yours sincerely,
[s] Owen Lattimore.
Owen Lattimore.
Exhibit No. 459 D
December 28, 1951.
Mr. Owen Lattimore,
The Johns Hopkins University,
Baltimore, Md.
Dear Mr. Lattimore: This will acknowledge your letter of December 20 in
which you informed me of your invitation to lecture in London before the Royal
Geoegraphical Society and the Royal Central Asian Society.
Your trip to England will not inconvenience the subcommittee in any way, and
you may complete your plans as scheduled.
I appreciate your desire to testify at public sessions of our committee as your
testimony will be very interesting. We wiU schedule your appearance sometime
after your return to this country.
Sincerely,
[S] Pat McCarran.
Mr. SouR^VTNE. In the opening paragraph of your statement, have
you expressed the four points which give you concern with regard to
the conduct of these hearings ?
Mr. Lattimore. These are four introductory points, and I don't
know whether you would consider some of the supplementary material
that comes later to be separate points or not.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Have you expressed those points in the order of
their primary interest to you — that is first yourself, second the IPR,
and third the Foreign Service, and fourth the United States foreign
policy ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I don't think I thought of it that way when
I drafted it. On the whole I can say "No," it is rather the reverse
order.
Mr. Sourwine. Go ahead, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. The impression has been assiduously conveyed in
your proceedings
Mr. Sourwine. Do you mean by "assiduously conveyed" to make the
charge that the committee has intended to convey a certain impres-
sion?
Mr. Lattimore. I mean that witness after witness before this com-
mittee has attempted to convey this impression and that no witnesses
have been asked any question that might test their veracity.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you mean to charge, sir, that the committee
has intended to coiivey a particular impression ?
Mr. Lattimore. I cannot answer for what is in the minds of the
committee.
r^
2992 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. We are asking- you what is in your mind, sir, what
you intended to convey by the use of that phrase.
Mr. Laitimore. I intended to convey by the use of that phrase
exactly what is stated here.
Senator Ferguson. Might I inquire? Do you include yourself as
one of the witnesses among those that you have mentioned?
Mr. Lattimore. You mean attempted to convey that I am a Com-
munist or Communist sympathizer?
Senator Ferguson. I did not mention Communist or Communist
sympathizer.
Mr. Lattimore. I have been heard once in executive session.
Senator Ferguson. You say no vv^itness has been questioned.
Mr. Lattimore. None of these witnesses referred to here.
Senator Ferguson. Well, were you questioned?
Mr. Lattimore. I was questioned in executive session some 7 or 8
months ago, and I have no transcript of that session.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever ask to see the transcript?
Mr. Lattimore. I asked to see the transcript afterward, to go over
it and see if there were any mistakes in it.
Senator Ferguson. Did you go over it?
Mr. Lattimore. I did.
Senator Ferguson. So you had the transcript, and you knew what
its contents were ?
I\Ir. Lattimore. I read the transcript about 7 months ago, and nat-
urally my memory of it is not very fresh now.
Senator Ferguson. Did you make any notes about it?
JSIr. Lattimore. No ; I made no notes when I read the transcript.
Senator Watkins. Do you have an extra copy of your statement, so
that we may follow it when you make it ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know if I have any more.
Mr. FoRTAs. Tliere were copies delivered for each member of the
committee, and the copies that were brought here have all been dis-
tributed to the press.
Senator Ferguson. How many were distributed to the press, Mr.
Fort as?
Mr. FoRTAS. I haven't any idea.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know how many you had made, Mr.
Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir ; I don't.
Senator Watkins. It is easier to follow you if we have a statement.
Mr. SouRWTNE. If we might get back to this question of your
phrase, "assiduously conveyed," what did you mean by that word
"assiduously"?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I believe the Latin etymology of the word
probably means to sit down and stick at.
Mr. Souravine. It comes from "assiduus," doesn't it? Did you
use it in that sense?
Mr. Lattimore. That is the sense in which I used it,
Mr. Sourwine. Go ahead, sir.
IVfr. Lattimore. The impression has been assiduously conveyed in
your proceedings that I am a Communist or a Communist sympa-
thizer or dupe
Mr. Souravine. How has that been conveyed, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, the record is full of it, sir.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2903
Mr. SoTJRwiNE. You are making the charge, sir, and has anyone
on the committee conveyed that impression, or has it been conveyfed
only by witnesses testifying here under oath ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think some of the leading questions of members
of the committee could be so interpreted, perhaps.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Are you interpreting the questions asked by the
committee as intended to convey that you were a Communist or Com-
munist sympathizer or dupe ?
Mr. Lattimore. In writing this opening part of my statement, I
was trying to convey an over-all impression of hearings that had been
going on for 8 months or so in which hostile evidence, evidence hostile
to me and others, has been piled up, and at this present time I am
attempting to deal with that accumulation of many months.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Chairman, might I inquire there as to
whether or not the witness believes that it is an important subject
to inquire as to whether or not an institution that is giving informa-
tion to the public has been penetrated by Communists or Communist
sympathizers ?
Mr. Lattimore. The subject is obviously important, but as you will
find later in this statement, I raise the point that previous clarifica-
tion as concerns myself was rather copiously provided 2 years ago
before the Tydings committee, and has been completely disregarded
in the hearings before this committee.
Seiiator Ferguson. Do you think that this committee should take
the record of the Tydings committee and close its proceedings and not
conduct any examination; is that what you are asking?
]SIr. Lattimore. That is not what I am asking.
Senator-FERGUSON. "\'\'liy do you mention it, then?
Mr. Lattimore. I mention it because I think that it is relevant to
any such inquiiy, and yet — especially as far as I myself am con-
cerned— and yet no reference has been made to it.
Senator Ferguson. Do you claim that that was a full and complete
examination of the question of the penetration of Communists or
Communist sympathizers into the Institute of Pacific Eelations ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am claiming that it was relevant to me per-
sonally, and my connections with the Institute of Pacific Eelations
were included in that inquiry.
Senator Ferguson. And, therefore, this committee should not have
gone into the question of your relations with the Institute of Pacific
Eelations?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that the question of my relations with the
Institute of Pacific Eelations might have been brought up with ref-
erence to what had gone before.
Senator Ferguson. Well, do I understand, then, that you think that
this committee should not have gone into that question here ?
Mr. Lattimore. No. I am merely suggesting that a more fair way
of going into the question, as far as I myself am concerned, would
have been to maintain at least the continuity of the record between
the extensive replies that I gave before the Tydings committee and
the allegations that have been made here.
Senator Ferguson. Do you figure that you were cross-examined by
the Tydings committee?
Mr. Lattimore. I do.
2904 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Ferguson. Completely cross-examined; you think all of
the facts were brought out?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I think that Senator Hickenlooper went into
a f^reat deal of detail over many hours.
Senator Ferguson. Did the Tydings committee have the records
that wei-e obtained by this committee from up in Concord in Massa-
chusetts?
Mr. Lattimore. No; it didn't.
Senator Ferguson. Then do you think that they could have ex-
ami)ied this problem of the Institute of Pacific Relations, without
those records?
Mr. Lattimore. The only point I am making, Senator, is that no
continuity or connection has been established in the hearings before
this committee with the inquiry that was conducted by the Tydings
committee, and I am not suggesting that one should have been a sub-
stitute for the other.
Senator Ferguson. Well, do you not think, from one of j^our an-
SAvers here, that you have indicated that this committee had gone out
of its way in an unfair manner to conduct these hearings about the
Institute of Pacific Relations?
Mr. Latt'imore. I am merely saying that as far as I, myself, am
concerned, I think the committee would have been fairer if it had
taken into account the record of the Tydings hearings.
Senator Ferguson. On the question of the activities of the Institute
of Pacific Relations?
Mr. Lattimore. On the question of myself and any connection be-
tween me and the institute.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, you have stated that the impression
has been assiduously conveyed, and you have explained what you
meant by that in the proceedings of this committee, that you are a
Communist or a Communist sympathizer or dupe. Have witnesses
before this committee testified that you were a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. Have witnesses before this committee testified that
you were a Communist sympathizer?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. Have witnesses before this committee testified that
you were a dupe ?
Mr. Lattumore. I think one or two witnesses have suggested that I
was either a sympathizer or a dupe.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you remember who any of those witnesses were?
Mr. Lattimore. I have read through such a mass of this stuff re-
cently that I am afraid my memory is not very clear on many of these
details.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you recall w^hether, in fact, a witness did so
testify, or whether you simply added that yourself as a third or pos-
sible alternative?
Mr. LAT'riMORE. Oh, no, it was based on a definite impression from
my reading it.
Mr. Sourwine. Go ahead, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. You see, I have been working on this for a long
time, I have been making notes as I went along, and the notes were
eventually incorporated into this statement. But in view of the kind
of work, that goes over and over a subject, you sometimes have the
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2905
note that establishes a particular point, but your mind loses the con-
nection with which the point was originally made. I am satisfied with
the point, however.
The impression has been assiduously conveyed m your proceedmgs
that I am a Communist or a Conmiunist sympathizer or dupe ; that I
master minded the Institute of Pacific Relations
Mr. Sour WINE. At that point, sir, to what extent did you have to
do with the conduct of the affairs of the Institute of Pacific Relations?
Mr. Lattimore. During my period of employment by the Institute
of Pacific Relations from 1934 to 1941, 1 was responsible solely for the
editing of the quarterly magazine, Pacific Affairs.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you know that Mr. Dennett, a former secretary
of the Institute of Pacific Relations, had testified that you and Mr.
Jessup were the two principal leaders of the affairs of that institute ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am aware tl^.at he so testified, and I would dispute
the accuracy of his testimony.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Go ahead, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. The impression has been assiduously conveyed in
your proceedings that I am a Communist or a Communist syinpathizer
or dupe ; that I master-minded the Institute of Pacific Relations ; that
the Institute of Pacific Relations and I master-minded the far-eastern
experts of the State Department^
Mr. SouRwiNE. If you will pardon me, Mr. Lattimore, can you say
that the Institute of Pacific Relations and you had no influence upon
the far-eastern experts of the State Department?
Mr. Lattimore. By the w^ay, what is your name, sir?
Mr. Sourwine. Sourwine, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. I hate replying in the blank.
]\Ir. Sourwine. I was present at the executive sessions, and I met
you, sir, at that time.
Mr. Lattimore. The publications of the Institute of Pacific Rela-
tions were available to all and sundry, including
The Chairman. Now, you are not answering the question.
Mr. Lattimore. I am leading up to my answer.
The Chairman. Very well.
Mr. Lattimore. I think it is a necessary introduction.
Including members of the Government. In the years when I was
active in the institute, the number of far-eastern experts and people
primarily interested in the Far East was relatively small. So far as I
know, practically all of them either belonged to the institute or read
its publications.
ISIr. Sourwine. Are you including in that statement the far-eastern
experts of the State Department ?
^Ir. Latti:more. I am including them ; and therefore, it would be my
assumption that practically all far-eastern personnel, or personnel
dealing with the Far East, in the Department of State, would read the
publications of the institute.
Mr. Sourwine. And most of them, you say, were members of the
institute?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe some of them were.
Mr. Sourwine. Didn't you say most of them ?
Mr. Lattoiore. I said most people interested in, and how far that
includes the Government personnel, I have no way of knowing.
Mr. Sourwine. Did it include some?
2906 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore, The records of the institute would doubtless show.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you know that it did include some of the far-
eastern experts of the State Department, that is, the membersliip of
the IPR did include some of those experts ?
JMr. Lattimore. I know in general that it included some, and I
couldn't name you anyone definitely.
JMr. SouRwiNE. Well, now, let us get back to the original question :
Can you say that the Institute of Pacific Relations and you had no
influence on the far-eastern experts of the State Department?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, the Avay in which I was trying to answer the
question was that I assume that those who read the publications of the
institute formed their own opinions about it, but it is obviously impos-
sible for me to answer on behalf of an anonymous Mr, X in the State
Department whether he personally was influenced by the work of the
institute, and if so, how much.
Senator Ferguson. Might I ask a question there? Did you intend
to influence the people in the State Department?
Mr. Lattimore. The program of the Institute of Pacific Relations
was perfectly clear, Senator. It was to make available on the mar-
ket, the market of ideas, the most accurate information that it could
assemble on the subject of the Far East, so that those who were inter-
ested could use that information as they themselves saw best.
The Chairman. Now, I would like to have you answer the question.
Senator Ferguson. Answer my question : Did you intend to influ-
ence the State Department?
Mr. Laitimore. We intended to contribute to the general fund of
knowledge about the Far East. Any question of a particular intent
to interest the State Department as a policy-making organ of the Gov-
ernment was, to the extent of my knowledge, never dreamed of.
Senator Ferguson. Well, did you furnish pamphlets and booklets
and books to the State Department?
Mr. Lattimore. I didn't personally.
Senator Ferguson. I mean the institute.
Mr. Lattimore. You would have to ask someone in the institute who
was in charge of distribution.
May I say that the Foreign Policy Association and other organiza-
tions interested in foreign policj^, I believe that the general practice is
to sell the publications; and then, in order to promote the sale of pub-
lications, to send free copies to people who might become likely sub-
scribers.
Senator Ferguson. Did you furnish free copies of the Pacific Af-
fairs, of which you were the editor ?
Mr. Lattimore. I occasionally sent out free copies ; yes, sir.
Senator Ferguson. To the State Department or any officials in the
State Department ?
Mr. Laitimore. I don't recall whether they were included or not.
Senator Ferguson. Then when you say you did not want to influ-
ence the State Department officials
Mr. Lattimore. As far as I was concerned, the intention was to
provide information for those who were interested in the belief, which
I thhik is a good old American belief, that out of a free market of
information and ideas, the best will eventually win out in competition.
Senator Ferguson. You figured yours was the best ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2907
Mr. Lati'imore. We furnished many kinds of opinion, as well as
information.
Senator Ferguson. Then you would not say it was good, bad, and
indifferent opinion ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I would say that to the best of our ability we
always produced well-informed opinion.
Senator Ferguson. That would be the best?
Mr. Lattimore. It was impossible to say what would be the best,
because the Far East then, as now, was an area of controversy, and
equally well-informed people might come to different conclusions from
the same data.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Lattimore, if such was the purpose, includ-
ing the making available to the State Department, with possibly hav-
ing some effect on their policy, was any effort made to prevent Com-
munists from having any voice in the conduct of the Institute of
Pacific Eelations ?
Mr. Lattimore. First, I would like to be a little more precise about
your wording, "to make available to the State Department," which
implies an exceptional interest in getting the State Department
Senator O'Conor. If it were not exceptional, it was not kept from
the State Department ; the information that you were making avail-
able to others, you certainly had a right to assume would be available
to the State Department.
Mr. Lattimore. That is why I say that I prefer a wording "to make
available," rather than "to make available to the State Department."
Senator O'Conor. Does that satisfy you, that it was available to
the State Department ?
Mr. Lattimore. If the wording is that it was as available to the
State Department as it was to anybody else.
Senator O'Conor. And that was, of course, your reason for being,
was it not : to make it generally available ?
Mr. Lattimore. To make it generally available.
Senator O'Conor. Now, my question was : What, if any, steps were
taken during the time that you were there to prevent Communists
from having voice in the conduct of the affairs of the Institute of
Pacific Relations?
Mr. Lattimore. From 1934 to 1941, as I have stated before, I was
responsible only for Pacific Affairs, and most of that time that was
a one-man and a secretary office, and most of the time it was not
in the United States. I was not responsible for the employment of
any personnel in New York or elsewhere, and hence not responsible
for policies of employment.
Senator O'Conor. I am waiting for you to answer the question.
Does that complete your answer ?
The Chairman. I am waiting for an answer.
Mr. Lattimore. But I was not in a position to have any concern
with whether Communists were employed or not.
Senator O'Conor. Are we to understand that you were not inter-
ested in whether or not Communists participated in the formation of
opinion and the dissemination of factual information, and are we
to understand that you were disinterested and indifferent?
Mr. Lattimore. No. I think that you can understand. Senator,
simply that the matter never came within my purview.
2908 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Ferguson. Did you read Pacific Affairs before it was sent
out to the public ?
Mr. Lattimore. As editor, I read everything that went in before it
went in.
Senator Ferguson. Then were you not concerned as to whether or
not pro-Communists were writing for that magazine while you were
editor ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is a different question, Senator.
Senator Ferguson. Well, answer that one.
Mr. Lattimore. I was asked about the institute.
The Chairman. Read the question.
(The pending question was read by the reporter.)
The Chairman. I think that that can be answered promptly. You
can answer it categorically.
Mr. Lattimore. My answer is that I was concerned primarily with
the qualitj^ of matter that went in. The Soviet Council was one of
the members of the institute, and naturally I assumed that anything
contributed by the Soviet Council was contributed by a Communist.
Senator Ferguson. Therefore, you felt that that would be a colored
view, if it was contributed by the Communists ?
Mr. Lattimore. I assumed that any contribution coming from the
Soviet Union would be in conformity with official Communist
doctrine.
Senator Ferguson. And it would be colored?
Mr. Lattimore. It would be colored according to official Com-
munist doctrine.
Senator Ferguson. Now, did you ever ascertain or try to ascertain
whether or not any writers other than those in the Soviet Union, as
members of their Government, were putting any articles in the mag-
azine of which you were the editor?
IMr. Lattimore. In regard to any contributions other than Soviet
contributions, if the contribution had struck me as Communist or
Communist propaganda, I would certainly have gone into the matter.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever go into the matter as to who was
writing, whether they were Communists or pro-Communists?
Mr. Lattimore. I always went into the matter from the point of
view of whether the man was well-informed and knew his stuff ; and
if anything had struck me as Communist propaganda, as such, I would
certainly have taken up the matter.
_ Senator Ferguson. Do you think at that time you could have recog-
nized pro-Communist propaganda?
]\Ir. Lattimore. Very likely there would be forms of Communist
propaganda that would get by me.
Senator Ferguson. You were able to detect Communist propaganda
at that time?
IMr. Lattimore. I would not consider myself an expert on the
subject.
Senator Ferguson. Then it may be that because of your inexpe-
rience in Communist propaganda that you did not recognize it ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is possible; and it is also pertinent, I think,
Senator, to remember that in the 1930's there was neither the same
general understanding of Communist methods of conspiracy and in-
filtration that there is now, nor the same general apprehension on the
subject. The occasional publication of left-wing articles was com-
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2909
mon in many journals of repute, and people were not concerned then
as they are today with precise shades of difference among leftists.
Senator Ferguson, Is that the reason that you allowed them to ap-
pear in Pacific Afl'airs, because they were appearing in other mag-
azines ?
Mr. Lattimore. My standard in Pacific Affairs was to secure, to
the best of my ability, well-informed articles.
Senator Ferguson. Well, now, the question is: Could you detect,
if you- were not an expert in Communist propaganda, that they were
not giving you well-informed articles, but they were giving you pure,
unadulterated Communist propaganda under the label of facts?
Mr, Lattimore. I think, Senator, that even without being an expert,
if I had been presented with pure, unadulterated Communist propa-
ganda I would probably have recognized it.
Senator Ferguson. Will you say the Pacific Affairs never presented
any pro-Communist propaganda at the time you were editor?
ilr. Lattimore. I want to be fair to the people that contributed to
Pacific Affairs, and I think that I would like to ask you, therefore,
to define a little more sharply what you mean by "pro-Communist."
The Chairman. Could you answer the question ?
Senator Ferguson. Do you know what pro-Communist is? I will
not question you if you do not know what it is.
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I should say pro-Communist, particularly
in the 1930's, might include a very wide range, including some things
that some people would call pro- Communist and other people would
not.
Senator Ferguson. Well, did you recognize any pro-Communist
propaganda in the magazine while you were editor?
Mr. Lattimore. Pro-Communist in the sense of, say, promoting
communism in the United States, you mean ?
Senator Ferguson. Promoting it in the world. You know that it
is not a local matter, communism, do you not ?
Mr. Lattimore. We are on the question of promoting. Senator.
Senator Ferguson. I know we are.
Mr. Sourwine. If I might interrupt, the question which has not
yet been answered is way back when, if the Senator will excuse me.
The Chairman. That is not the only question which has not been
answered, but if we could get to a question that would be answered
once in a while, it would be very helpful.
Senator Ferguson. Can you answer the question?
Mr. Lattimore. What are we driving af right now ?
Senator Ferguson. I do not know what you are driving at. I am
trying to get an answer to a question.
Mr. Lattimore. Well, Senator, looking at it from 1952, I would
find it extremely difficult to lay down a definition of what was pro-
Communist in 1935 or 1936.
Senator Ferguson. That was not my question. I will go back and
ask you another question. Was there or was there not any pro-
Communist article in your magazine. Pacific Affairs, while you were
editor ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think it would depend on who was making the
definition of what is pro-Communist.
Senator Ferguson. Is that the only answer you can give ?
8S348— 52— pt. 9 2
2910 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I think that that is the necessary answer, Senator.
Senator Ferguson. Well, suppose we make it the definition advo-
catintr international communism.
Mr. Lattimore. 1 don't think we published anything of that sort.
Senator Ferguson. You would say there was not anything like that.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, just to bring the record up to date,
could we go back to \nj question?
The Chairman. How far back are you going ?
Mr. Sourwine. This is quite a ways back, Mr, Chairman.
Mr. Lattimore, can you say that the Institute of Pacific Relations
and you had no influence on the far-eastern experts of the State De-
partment ?
Mr. Lattimore. I cannot state whether we did or not, or how much.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you intend by the statement in this issued state-
ment here of 3^ours, to convey the impression that the Institute of
Pacific Kelations and you had not had any influence on the far-eastern
experts of the State Department ?
Mr. Latitmore. To my best understanding, the Institute of Pacific
Eelations never had a policy of influencing the formation of policy
in the United States Government through influencing personnel.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Now, will you attempt to answer the question : Did
you intend by the language in this statement, to convey to the commit-
tee the impression that the Institute of Pacific Relations and you never
had any influence on the far-eastern experts of the State Department ?
Mr. Lattimore. I intended to convey that we never had any influ-
ence that was the outcome of a campaign or policy of influencing the
State Department.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you intend to convey the impression that you
never had any influence — period ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know whether we had any influence on in-
dividuals in the State Department or not.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you intend to convey the impression by the
language which you used here, that the Institute of Pacific Relations
and you had no influence on the far-eastern experts of the State De-
partment ?
]\Ir. Lattimore. I intended to convey the impression that we had no
influence that was the result of a calculated campaign on our part.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, please leave out any question of cal-
culation, and I am asking you whether you intended to convey to tliis
committee the impression that the Institute of Pacific Relations and
you had no influence on the far eastern experts of the State Depart-
ment?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, my answers have to be within my
competence to answer.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you think it is not within your competence to
answer that question as to your intent?
Mr. Lattimore. I have answered as to my intent already.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you disavow the intent to convey, by the lan-
guage which you used, the impression that the IPR and you had no
influence on the far eastern experts of the State Department?
Mr. Lattimore. I intended to convey that I have no way of measur-
ing whether the institute had any influence or not.
Mr. Sourwine. Go ahead with the reading of your statement, sir.
Senator Smith. Could I ask him a question there?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2911
Mr. Lattimore, during and after you were editor of the Pacific Af-
fairs, did you have any conversations with any of the far eastern ex-
perts in the State Department ?
Mr. Lattimore. During and after, yes.
Senator Smith. Well, now, did you get any impression from them
as to whether or not the articles that you had either edited or had
printed, or written yourself, had any influence on them ?
Mr. Lattimore. You are asking me to throw my memory a long
way back, Senator.
Senator Smith. Well, of course, I am asking you to do just that,
if you have a memory about that.
Mr. Lattimore. I can remember discussing this and that about the
Far East many times with members of the Department of State.
Senator Smith. With a good many members?
Mr. Lattimore. I could not give you a precise answer as to whether
any article or publication was ever referred to, either one put out by
the institute or one put out by somebody else.
Senator Smith. Well, you discussed those articles with various
men in the Far Eastern Division ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I think you misunderstood me, Senator. I say
that I discussed far eastern matters, and I don't remember ever dis-
cussing with a member of the State Department any particular ar-
ticle, either one with which I had connection or one for which I had
no responsibility.
Senator Smith. With how many people in that Department did
you discuss far eastern affairs?
Mr. Lattimore. I would find it impossible to tell you, Senator, how
many people I ever knew in the Department, much less
Senator Smith. I did not ask you how many you knew in the De-
partment.
Mr. Lattimore. Much less with how many I
The Chairman. Won't you answer the question of Senator Smith?
Do 3'ou understand tlie question? If you do not understand it, let
us know and we will have it repeated.
Mr. Lattimore. The question is. With how many people did I dis-
cuss ? And the answer is, I have no way of telling.
Senator Smith. Well, did you discuss it with many, or few ?
Mr. Lattimore. Many or few is a subjective variation, and how
many is "many," and how few is "few" ?
Senator Smith. I would have thought that you had some idea about
the difference between "few" and "many," but if you do not have any
conception of that, I can appreciate that you probably cannot answer
the question and probably do not want to answer it. Now, what I
am asking you now is: How many people did you discuss it with
there ? How many ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know. Senator.
Senator Smith. Do you know the names of some of them that you
did discuss it with?
Mr. Latitmore. I could probably recollect some names of people
with whom I have discussed it.
Senator Smith. Suppose you give it to us.
Mr. Lattimore. But I wonder if it would be fair to mention the
names of some jDeople, and leave the names of other people out ?
2912 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
The Chairman. Answer the question, if you will. A question has
been propounded.
Senator Smith. I am asking for all of them. We do not want you
to leave out anybody; we do not want you to slight anybody.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I would like to point out that I have lived
in many countries
The Chairman. Now, just a minute, Mr. Lattimore. Just a min-
ute. A question has been propounded to you, and do you care to
answer it ?
Read the question to the witness.
(The pending question was read by the reporter.)
The Chairman. Just a moment, Mr. Fortas.
Mr. Fortas. I said to the witness, "Go ahead and state the names."
The Chairman. I am going to admonish you again, when the wit-
ness wants advice from you, he will indicate it.
ISIr. Fortas. The witness is supposed to turn to me ?
The Chairman. Please conform to that rule.
Mr. Fortas. I will, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, I was just trying to make it plain
to the Senator who asked me the question, that I am not trying to be
evasive. I have lived in and met members of the State Department
in many countries. When I changed my residence, very often the
acquaintanceship would be dropped, and it might be renewed again
later on. Consequently, I am not like a man who has been sitting in
the same city all of his life and finds it easy to remember whom he
knew in what year, and what he talked about, and so on.
The Chairman. If you cannot remember, you can answer the Sena-
tor by saying you cannot remember ; but there is a distinct question,
very clearly pronounced to you, as to who you discussed it with, and
name them all, he said, that you can remember. That, is no matter
where you discussed it.
Mr. Lvttimore. Well, I have discussed questions of the Far East — •
let us try and begin at the top with — I can't remember his name now.
Just a moment. With Mi-. John V. A. McMurray, when he was Minis-
ter in Peking in the late 1920's and early 1930's. And I have discussed
questions of the Far East with Mr. Nelson T. Johnson, who was sub-
sequently Minister an.d later Ambassador. And I have discussed them
with Ambassador Clarence E. Dawes, in Chungking. And I have dis-
cussed them with Mr. Grew when he was Ambassador in Tokyo. And
I believe I also met and probably talked about far eastern questions
with Mr. Dummon, who was in the Tokyo Embassy at the same time.
And tlien in Peking, below the top rank there would be — do you want
me to include military attaches and people like that?
Senator Smith. My question was as to persons in the State Depart-
ment, connected with the State Department.
Mr. Lattimore. Well, all of these so far are State Department.
Let me see. There would also be Mr. John Carter Vincent. There
would be the men — I don't 7'emember their names now — who were our
consuls in Mukden and Harbin in 1929 and 1930; members of our con-
sulate in Tsinsing, especially in the 1920's, and I can't recall their
names offliand at the moment.
And among people who were junior personnel in the early 1930's
in Peking, there would be Mr. Edmund Clubb, Mr. Donald Service.
There was a man named — what was it, Rice or Millet, or some kind of
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2913
grain — it was Mr. Ringwald ; Mr. John Davies — there was Mr. James
Penfield ; and there is a man named Landon, I think, who was consul
or consul general in Chungming in 1944, and afterward I believe he
went to Korea. And there was Mr. George Atcheson, and probably a
lot more, but they don't come to mind.
Senator Smith. You do not recall any of the persons working here
in Washington in the State Department that you talked to about this?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, some of these people I met in China only, and
some in Washington, and some both in China and in Washington.
Senator Smith. Well, now, did you discuss with all of those, and
others, the articles that were appearing in Pacific Affairs while you
were the editor?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no idea, sir.
Senator Smith. You have no recollection whatever?
Mr. Lattimore. I should think it is very likely that when I was out
in Peking, for instance, a very small foreign community, and the new
issue of Pacific Affairs had just arrived from the printer and been
distributed, that somebody would say, "There is a good number this
time. I like that article by So-and-So," or something of that sort.
But I have no precise recollection.
Senator Smith. Do you have any recollection whether you received
any word either oral or written, by anyone in the State Departmep.t
after the publication of particular articles?
Mr. Lattimore. It is quite possible, but I don't recall any.
Senator Smith. All right, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Ferguson. Would you not have thought that the magazine
Pacific Affairs was a failure, if it had not had some influence on the
State Department officials?
Mr. Latit]more. I think I should point out at this moment, Senator,
that Pacific Affairs was not an American magazine.
Senator Ferguson. Well, whatever it was.
Mr. Lattimore. It was an international publication of the Institute
of Pacific Relations, and I tried to get as much circulation for it as I
•could in a number of countries.
Mr. Sourwine. In what languages was that magazine published?
Mr. Lattimore. In English.
Mr. Sourwine. In English only?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Where was it printed?
Mr. Lattimore. It was printed in
Mr. Sourwine. In what country ?
Mr. Lattimore. In the United States.
Mr. Sourwine. Entirely in the United States ?
Mr. Lattimore. Printed in the United States and mailed out from
either New York or from wherever the printer was.
Mr. Sourwine. What proportion of its circulation was within the
United States?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't remember. You could get those figures.
Mr. Sourwine. Was it as high as 80 percent?
Mr. Lattimore. I would doubt it.
Mr. Sourwine. Was it as high as 75 percent ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, I don't remember those ratios.
Senator Ferguson. He has not answered my question, whether or
not he would have considered it a failure if it had not had some effect
upon the officials of the State Department.
2914 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I would have considered it a failure if it had not
interested or if it had not been of interest to intelligent people working
on far eastern problems.
Senator Ferguson. Were you trying to influence — you indicate that
it was a foreign paper as well as United States, and were you trying
to influence the foreign policy of any other nation ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Ferguson. Well, then, were you trying to influence the
opinion of the public of America along far eastern affairs ?
Mr. Lattimore, I was not trying to influence anybody's opinion,
Senator. I was trying to supply information to those interested.
Senator Ferguson. But not trying to influence them ?
Mr. Latitmore. No ; it was not a propaganda organ, in any sense.
Senator Ferguson. No articles were printed, to your knowledge,
to influence the opinion of people ?
Mr. Lattimore. We published articles of opinion as well as articles
of information. You are getting into an area there of the difference
between an author's intent and an editor's intent.
Senator Ferguson. Weil, did you write any articles ?
Mr. Lattimore. I did.
Senator Ferguson. Did you, as a writer, try to influence the opinion
oj^ the American public ?
Mr. Lattimore. I didn't try to influence the opinion of the Ameri-
can public more than the opinion of anybody else who might read
the paper.
Senato]' Ferguson. Well, did you try to influence anj'^one's opinion,
and let us make it broad now ?
Mr. Lattimore. Certainly, I had views of my own, and I mar-
shalled my facts in connection with my own views. And incidentally,
my views proceeded from the facts and not from the facts from the
views.
Senator Ferg^^^u^n. Did you only publish those facts that you had
personal knowledge of ?
Mr. Lattimore. I published facts — in what sense do you mean "per-
sonal knowledge," Senator?
Senator Ferguson. Knowing them from personal knowledge, per-
sonal experience.
Mr. Lattimore. Well, you mean not including something that I
might have got from a written source ?
Senator Ferguson. That is right.
Mr. Lattimore. Oh, no. Certainly, I have often gone on written
sources.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever allow anyone to write in the maga-
zine under an alias ?
Mr. Lattimore. Certainly.
Senator Ferguson. Why was that done ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is a very common practice.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Lattimore, did you permit any Communists
to write under an alias?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I know of.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever try to find out whether any per-
son who wrote under an alias was or was not a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think that question ever arose.
Senator Ferguson. Not even in your mind ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2915
Mr. Latttmore. Not even in my mind.
Senator Ferguson. You were not much concerned, then, with the
Siuestion of communism while you were with the Institute of Pacific
xehitions, is that a fair statement?
Mr. Lattimore. In the 1930's?
Senator Ferguson. Well, any time while you were with the insti-
tute.
Mr. Lattimore. I think that you should draw a line there, Sen-
ator
Senator Ferguson. You draw the line.
Mr. Lattimore. Between when I was an editor and when
Senator Ferguson. When you were an editor, yovi were not con-
cerned with the question of communism ?
Mr. Lattimore. In the 1930's, when I was editing that magazine,
Senator, subjects like the Chinese Communists, and so on, were topics
of general interest, and I tried to get information on those, but I never
published an article that I believed to be by a Chinese Communist
or promoting the Chinese Communists' cause.
However, in the 1930's, if it had been possible to get an article by a
Chinese Communist giving the Chinese Communist point of view,
that would have been such a news scoop that I might well have pub-
lished it, with an identification of just what it was.
Senator Ferguson. You would, then, have identified it?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
Senator Ferguson. Did you at that time, in the 1930's, that you are
talking about, believe that the Communists of China were agrarian
reformers, or under the international communism from Moscow ?
Mr. Lattimore. I never believed that the Chinese Communists
were merely agrarian reformers. I have always believed that they
were right straight down-the-line Communists. I would like to qual-
ify that, however, by pointing out that for many years the program
of the Chinese Communists was based on winning a following amongst
an agrarian population, I would like to point out, in connection with
the ideological identity between the Chinese Communists and the
Kremlin Communists, that for many years the Chinese Communists
were working in an isolated part of China where the belief among
many experts is that it was impossible for them to have constant
liaison with Moscow.
Senator Ferguson. You did understand this Communist prob-
lem, and you knew the difference between the Moscow Communists
and those that might be just agrarian reformers?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think that I thought any Communists were
just agrarian reformers.
Senator Ferguson. You knew the purpose of the Communists ?
Mr, Lattimore, Well, the Chinese Communists, as far as I have
known, have always claimed that they were straight Kremlin Com-
munists,
Senator Ferguson. They have never contended that they were just
agrarian reformers, have they?
Mr. Lattimore. Not to my knowledge.
Senator Watkins. Might I ask this question : Did you ever chal-
lenge the Communists, or write an editorial attacking communism and
exposing it to the people of the United States and to the world,
through this magazine ?
2916 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I was not an expert on communism, even
Chinese communism, although I lived in China, and I published a
number of articles very hostile to the Soviet Union and communism,
by others, in Pacific Affairs.
Senator Watkins. You do not remember about when those articles
were published?
(Brief recess.)
Senator O'Conor. The witness may proceed.
Mr. Lattimoke. Let's see; I can remember William Henry
Chamberlin.
Senator Watkins. I said, your opinions were your own opinions,
your own editorials that you wrote?
Mr. Lattimore. As I said, I was not writing on the subject of
communism.
Senator Watkins. That is what I want to find out, if you ever
wrote an editorial on communism and exposed it and pointed out any
of the dangers of communism to the free world.
Mr. Lattimore. I was editing a magazine with all kinds of people
contributing, and I published anti-Communist opinions. However,
I was not an expert on the subject myself, and I did not write on
the subject myself.
Senator Watkins. You did write many editorials and wrote j^our
own opinions, as you stated a moment ago ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not many editorials. I wrote articles. I think
most of the articles that I wrote in Pacific Affairs were on my own
specialt}', which was Inner Mongolia.
Senator Watkins. You say you did publish some articles that were
anti- Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Senator Watkins. You could name those ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I can name some: William Henry Cham-
berlin ; Harold Isaacs, a man who was the former Dutch Ambassador,
Dutch Minister in China, Oudendyk, 0-u-d-e-n-d-y-k.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You list a number of such writers further on in
your statement, do you not, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I do ; yes.
Senator Watkins. Did you ever write on the subject of communism
in your editorials?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think I ever wrote on the subject of
communism as such in my editorials.
Senator Watkins. Did you recognize at that time that there was
a danger in communism ?
Mr. Lattimore. I recognized that communism was one of the
important subjects in the Far East.
Senator Watkins. You did not answer my question. I asked you
if you recognized that there was a danger in communism to the
free Avorld.
Mr. Lattimore. Not in the sense that we recognize it now ; no.
Senator Watkins. In other words, you did not recognize it at
that time ?
Mr. Lattimore. No. I thought in the 1930's that communism was
an extremely important subject in the Far East, but I did not have
the same understanding of Communist conspiracy in long-range
methods that I have today.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2917
Senator Watkins. Yet you have traveled extensively in Kussia and
in Asiatic countries where communism was rampant at that time ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir ; I had not traveled extensively in Russia.
I had traveled in China, but had never been in Communist territory
or Communist-infiltrated territory in Cliina throughout my stay in
China until almost the very end.
Senator Watkins. You do not mean to say to this committee that
you did not study comnumism or the writings that were put out in
connection with it or the articles and books written by Communists?
]\Ir. Lattimore. I made no special study of communism.
Senator Watkins. I have a further question here with reference
to whether or not the State Department relied upon this information
or was influenced by it. We had a witness before us, Mr. Lattimore,
I think it was Dr. Fleugel, who said that they went to the Institute of
Pacific Relations publications to get information because there were
very few other sources from which they could get information on
the Far East.
Do you care to comment on that, since you are a student of the Far
East?
jNIr. Lattimore. There were very few in that period. There were
very few publications devoted exclusively to the Far East. There
were, of course, articles on far-eastern subjects that came out in maga-
zines like Foreign Affairs and in publications devoted to international
relations in general, such as the publications of the Foreign Policy
Association, but I believe that in those years, to the best of my recol-
lection, the publications of the Institute of Pacific Relations were the
only ones that not only specialized on the Far East but were confined
to the Far East.
Senator Watkins. And you would know as a matter of fact from
your general knowledge of what was being published, written and
published on the Far East, that the Institute of Pacific Relations
articles were probably about the — well, they comprised the major
part of literature at that time on that subject ?
Mr. Lattimore. I wouldn't know whether they comprised the major
part of the literature, I think they comprise the important part.
Senator Watkins. You are an expert on far-eastern affairs; you
would naturally keep in touch with these publications, all articles
written? It would be part of your job to read them and analyze
them?
Mr. Lattimore. Even in those days, Senator, the volume coming
out was too much for one man. You see, the Institute of Pacific
Relations dealt with everything from Asiatic Siberia down to Indo-
nesia, and even in those days no one man could possibly be an expert
on all the countries comprised within that enormous geographical
range.
Senator Watkins. Well, I understand you probably could not be
acquainted with all of them, but it would seem to me that having taken
on the position of editor of this magazine that dealt in foreign affairs
and studied those problems, that presented facts in connection with
them, that you or your staff would survey all of the current articles
and the literature on the subject for review and for presentation to
keep your readers informed of what was going on in the Far East.
Mr. Lattimore. Let me tell you there. Senator, the method of
editing was rather different from that. I was only one j^erson and
2918 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
usually had no help except a secretary. So the method of editing
and editorial evaluation, whether an article was worth publication
or not, was by circulating tj^pescript copies of articles to all countries.
You see, this magazine came out only once in 3 months, so the rate
of publication was rather leisurely. If, for instance, we had an article
by an Englishman affecting Dutch Indonesia, we would send that
article to somebody in Holland as well as to people in America inter-
ested in the subject and similarly with all of the questions. They were,
practically all the material in Pacific Affairs, had extensive prepubli-
cation circulation and was seen by a number of people.
If any questions were raised, they were always referred back to
the author.
Senator O'Oonor. Mr. Lattimore, you may continue your statement.
I think you were just at the latter part of the second paragraph on the
first page.
Mr. Lattimore. I am still in the first part of the second paragraph,
so if I may resume so that readers will not lose track of the sense ■
Senator O'Conor. You have been over the first part three or four
times, the "assiduously conveyed."
Mr. Lattimore. But the sentence hasn't been finished yet.
Senator O'Conor. You would prefer to go back and continue that?
I wonder whether we could withhold our questioning until the whole
paragraph is read?
Mr. Lattimore. That would accord with my interest in the sub-
ject, Senator.
The impression has been assiduously conveyed in your proceedings
that I am a Communist or a Communist sympathizer or dupe; that I
master-minded the Institute of Pacific Kelations; that the Institute
of Pacific Relations and I master-minded the far eastern experts of the
State Department ; and that the State Department "sold" China to the
Russians. Every one of these is false — utterly and completely false.
Senator Ferguson. He has finished that sentence, and before he gets
to the next one, could I ask a question ?
Senator O'Conor. Senator Ferguson.
Senator Ferguson. Do you claim that you know and say that the
State Department sold China to the Russians — that is, you have per-
sonal knowledge that that is utterly and completely false, or are you
talking abofit your own
Mr. Lattimore. I am talking about a dependent clause of this sen-
tence beginning, "The impression has been assiduously conveyed that,"
and so forth.
Senator Ferguson. That the State Department sold China to the
Russians ?
Mr. Lattimore. But not conveyed by me. But not conveyed by me,
and not believed by me.
Mr. Sourwine. Might I ask a clarifying question?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you have any doubt about the Russian domina-
tion of China today?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, that is a very controversial ques-
tion.
Mr. Sourwine. Then you do have doubt ?
Mr. Lattimore. Some people believe. I would like to state my
opinion in a moment, but I would like to state it in a balanced way.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2919
Mr. SoTJRWiNE. I was attempting to clarify, not to bring forth a
lengthy statement. If it does not clarify, I would withdraw it.
Mr. Lattimore. Some people maintain that China is controlled in
each and every detail by the Russians. Others believe that China is
controlled by the Chinese Communists, but that the Chinese Com-
munists are allies rather than subordinates of the Russians. I would
incline to the second opinion.
Mr. SoTJRWiNE. I am afraid the question did not help clarify. Sen-
ator Ferguson.
Senator Ferguson. I could ask a number of questions right there,
but I think I will pass them.
Senator O'Conor. Just proceed, Mr. Lattimore.
Senator Ferguson. Because I think it is contradictory to what he
said, that they were Communists dominated by Russia, and I will go
back and take the other statement.
Mr. Lattimore. That point, Senator, I think I should
Senator Ferguson. Clarify?
Mr. Lattimore. Clarify myself.
Senator Ferguson. I wish you would.
Mr. Lattimore. I spoke of my belief that the Chinese Communists
consider themselves completely — ideologically completely — in con-
formity with Russian ideas of communism. That is a question of
ideological conformity, and not a question of operational control.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know of any Communists that are actu-
ally Communists, as you claim they are, that are not under the control
of the Communist Party of Russia, the Kremlin?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I believe that in the case of the Chinese
Communists, owing to questions of time and distance and lack of per-
sonnel, and so forth, it would be extremely difficult for the Russians
to have operational control of every detail of the C'linese Communist
action in China even if they wanted it and even if the Chinese Com-
munists were willing to concede it.
Senator Ferguson. Then you do not believe that Russia is domi-
nating the war in Korea as far as the Chinese are concerned ?
Mr. Lattiimore. If I knew the answer to that question, Senator, I
would be in Wall Street making a lot of money.
Senator Ferguson. In what way would you be making money out
of that?
Mr. Lattimore. I think it would be extremely valuable information
to know exactly who is controlling how much.
Senator Ferguson. Who do you think would pay you for that
opinion ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think I could probably go to the market.
Ssnator Ferguson. Would j'ou not say that that was the prevalent
opinion in the United States— that they are dominating the action of
the Communists of China in Korea?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know whether it is the prevalent opinion
or not. I know that many well-informed people in England and
India believe that the initiative there is held by the Chinese rather
than by the Russians.
Senator Ferguson. Is that your opinion?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't know enough about it to decide either
one way or the other. That is why I say if I did know I think it would
be useful knowledge.
2920 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Ferguson. Then yon would think that Russia would
classify as a neutral as far as Korea is concerned ?
Mr. Lattimore. The question itself is somewhat of a non sequitur ;
isn't it, Senator ?
Senator Ferguson. I am asking you. Would you classify it as a
neutral ?
Mr. Lattimore. Certainly not.
Senator Ferguson. Then you do have some opinion on it?
Mr. Lattimore. I have an opinion, but not a precise opinion that
1 would go to bat for. I recognize the limits of my own knowledge.
Mr. SouRwiNE. May I ask two questions ?
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Sourwine.
Mr, SouRwiNE. Did the State Department, the American Stat©
Department, make the policy which the American Government fol-
lowed with respect to China over the last 7 or 8 years?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know enough about it to tell you, Mr. Sour-
wine, how far it was made by the State Department, how far by the
White House, how far by the advice of the armed services, how far
perhaps by the Treasury, how far by the Congress.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you think that hindsight indicates that there
were any mistakes in the policy which was followed by this country
with regard to China ?
Mr. Lattimore. I would make a distinction there, Mr. Sourwine.
Ill fact, I try to make it later in my statement, between mistakes and
lack of success.
Mr. Sourwine. Very good. Could we go ahead with the statement^
Mr. Chairman?
Senator O'Conor. Except for this one question. Mr. Lattimore,
you have indicated that you were not entirely informed as to the rela-
tive importance of the different agencies or departments or individ-
uals. May I ask if you, during that time, had any connection with
the State Department or the White House?
Mr. Lattimore. In a policy making?
Senator O'Conor. In any capacity.
Mr. Lattimore. No connection other than that of an ordinary citi-
zen, probably as a matter of fact less connection than any far-eastern
representative in this country.
Senator O'Conor. Were you prior to that time or at that time
having any connection with the State Department or the White
House ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have never been stationed in the employ of either
the State Department or the White House with the distinction, which
is a technical distinction, but perhaps I had better mention it, that
when I was on a mission in Japan, which was a White House mission,
the pay checks for some reason — some bureaucratic reason that is
beyond my ken — were sent out by the State Department rather than
by the White House.
Senator O'Conor. Did you occupy any space in either the State
Department or the ^^Hiite House or any adjunct of them?
]N[r. Lattijmore. Not by right. This question has come up before.
Senator O'Conor. At all?
Mr. Lattimore. I think I dealt with it later in my statement, but
I don't mind going into it now if you like. At one time when I was
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2921
working for Chiang Kai-shek and when my functions were largely
liaison functions between Chang Kai-shek and President Roosevelt,
I was back in tliis country, and Mr. Lauchlin Currie, who was the
executive assistant to President Roosevelt, who was in charge of most
of Mr. Roosevelt's interest in the China problem, offered me the cour-
tesy, not the right, of the use of a room adjoining his own office.
That room was — there has been a great deal of confusion about it
because that room was in the Old State, War, and Navy Building.
The question was raised whether I had an office in the State Depart-
ment. I confess I wasn't bright enough to tumble to it right away
because that building housed, besides the State Department, a large
part of the Executive Offices of the President and also the Bureau of
the Budget. It was a multioffice building. But I did have the use
of an office that was physicallj^ located in that building but was not
regarded by anybody concerned as a part of the State Department.
Senator O'Conor. "Will you then proceed to your statement, Mr.
Lattimore, please ?
Senator Ferguson. I might just ask one question here. Is it a fair
assumption, then, that while you were editor of the Pacific Affairs
the State Department was avoiding your judgment or your opinion
as an expert in the Far East ?
Mr. Lattimore. That during the period I was editing Pacific Affairs
the State Department was avoiding?
Senator Ferguson. Yes ; is that a fair assumption ?
Mr. Lattimore. Avoiding what ?
Senator Ferguson. Your
Mr. Lattimore. My opinion or avoiding Pacific Affairs?
Senator Ferguson. Your opinion.
Mr. Lattimore. One has to draw a delicate line between disregard
and avoidance.
Senator Ferguson. Avoidance.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you think the State Department was disregard-
ing your opinion ?
Senator O'Conor. Let him answer.
Senator Ferguson. Were they avoiding getting in touch with you as
an expert?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think so. Of course, the manner and atti-
tude of the State Department in those days was rather top-lofty and
full of hauteur, so I suppose the mere civilian crawling on the ground
might feel that he was being avoided, but I don't know whether it
would be a just accusation.
Senator Ferguson. Did you feel that you were being avoided ?
Mr. Latttmore. I didn't feel that I was being regarded.
Senator O'Conor. All right.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, are you familiar with exhibit 229
introduced in the public record of this hearing on August 23, 1951,
being a letter from Mr. Sumner Welles to Mr. Edward C. Carter,
in which JNIr. Welles stated that —
While for obvious reasons the Department of State has necessarily adopted
the practice of refraining from enforcing or sponsoring any particular private
organization, I am glad to say that in the opinion of officers of the Department
who are especially familiar with the activities of the Institute of Pacific Rela-
tions the publications of the institute have been of interest and value, and the
institute has been making a substantial contribution to the development of an
informed public opinion.
2922 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Did you have that in mind at all in the answers you have just given?
Mr. Lattimore, I didn't have that in mind. Now that you read it
out it seems to me a sort of standard formula that any Government
office sents out to any private organization that sends its publica-
tions and hopes for a pat on the head. They didn't want to give in
their public relations any idea of scorning anybody.
Mr. SoIIRw^NE. I apologize for that diversion, Mr. Chairman.
Senator O'Coxcj. All right. Now the next paragraph, Mr. Latti-
more.
]\Ir. Lattimore. Concerning my reputation and character, you have
now for many months been publishing to the world an incredible mass
of unsubstantiated accusations, allegations, and insinuations.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Who does the witness mean by "you" ?
Senator O'Conor. May I ask, Mr. Sourwine, it will expedite if we
read the entire paragraph.
Mr. Lattimore. All right.
Senator O'Conor. Will you continue on ?
]\Ir. Lattimore. For months a long line of witnesses has set me in
the midst of a murky atmosphere of pretended plots and conspiracies
so that it is now practically impossible for my fellow citizens to follow
in detail the specific refutation of each lie and smear.
Mr. SouR'sviNE, Mr. Chairman ?
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, who do you mean by "you" as used
in the first line of that paragraph? Yon mean this committee?
Mr. Lattimore. By ""you" I mean the committee was responsible
for conducting and publishing these proceedings. Later on in my
statement I raise the point that I do not know whether some of the
initial responsibility is that of the committee or that of its staff.
Senator Watkins. Mr. Chairman, may I point out that apparently
there is no doubt about whom he means. He starts out in the first
sentence, "Senators." He is talking to us.
Mr. Sourwine. What I wanted to ask the witness, Mr. Chairman, is
whether to his knowledge the committee has published anything except
the hearings which have been held.
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I know of.
Mr. Sourwine. Have these hearings consisted of anything except
the testimony of witnesses under oath ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I know of.
Mr. SourSvine. Go ahead, sir.
Senator O'Conor. Go ahead, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. I have something to say later about the manner in
which that testimony has been elicited and presented.
I should, in fact, be less than frank if I did not confess that I see no
hope that your committee will fairly appraise the facts ; and I believe
I owe it to you to state the reasons.
Mr, Sourwine. Do you mean by that, sir, to charge that the com-
mittee is hopelessly biased ?
Mr. Lallimore. I give, I say here, that I owe it to you to state the
reasons.
Mr. Sourwine. The question is, What do you mean ? Do you mean
to charge that the committee is hopelessly biased ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2923
Mr. Lati'imore. I mean that I am going to state the reasons for
which I believe that ; that I have no hope that this committee will
fairly appraise the facts.
Mr. SouRwiisrE. By saying that you have no hope that this commit-
tee will fairly appraise the facts, do you mean to charge that the com-
mittee is hopelessly biased against you ?
Mr. Lattimgre. As I try to make clear later in the statement, I
don't know , I am in no position to know how much of this responsi-
bility is divided between the committee and its staff.
Senator Smith. Mr. Lattimore. what you do in that sentence is to
charge this committee with bad faith. Is that what you mean ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am stating here my own lack of hope that this
committee would fairly appraise.
Senator O'Coxor. Mr. Lattimore, Senator Smith asked you a simple
question, whether you do or do not make such charge.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know whether it's lack of faith or prejudice,
Senator.
Senator Smith. You say "* * * I see no hope that your com-
mittee will fairly appraise the facts."
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Smith. Now, if we would fairly appraise the facts, you
M'ould say we would be acting in good faith, if we did fairly appraise
the facts ? You say we would act in good faith ; would you not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Certainly.
Senator Smith. Now then, you say, therefore, if according to your
reasoning as stated here that we were not fairly appraising the facts
that is tantamount to saying that we are acting in bad faith ; is that
what you mean ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I base — I give my reasons, later on.
Senator Smith. I am not asking for reasons; I am asking about
that sentence.
Senator O'Conor. Is it not possible to give a categorical answer ?
Senator Smith. Not the reason, the meaning of those words.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, there is a difference between bad faith
and prejudgment.
Mr. SouRAviNE. Are you attempting to make a technical distinc-
tion between bias and prejudice?
Senator O'Conor. Just a minute ; he ought to be permitted to com-
plete his answer.
Mr. Lattimore. I base this statement here largely on the fact that
the chairman of this committee at a time that the hearings are still in
progress and before all the evidence is in has stated in print in a pub-
lished interview as his "curbstone opinion" that the IPR originally
was an organization with laudable motives. It was taken over by
Communist design and made a vehicle for attempted control and con-
ditioning of American thinking and American policy with regard to
the Far East.
It was also used for espionage purposes to collect and channel infor-
mation of interest or value to the Russian Communists. That was,
in my opinion
Senator O'Conor. Will you just identify that?
Mr. Lattimore. This is the United States News and World — it's
quoted later in my statement. United States News and World Re-
port of this city, and the date is November 16, 1951.
2924 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, might I inquire at this point?
Would it interrupt Senator Smith?
I would simply like to inquire, Mr. Lattimore, do you know that at
the time the chairman made that statement this committee had taken
five volumes of testimony ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no idea, Mr. Sourwine, of how much the
committee had scooped up or what it scooped it up in, but I am aware
that the hearings are not complete, that this is a prejudgment in a
hearing that is still under process where most of the accused have not
yet been heard.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you mean, Mr. Lattimore, to imply your feel-
ing that the chairman of the committee had no right to form for him-
self a personal opinion as to what the testimony up to that point
indicated ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, I am merely pointing out that when
the chairman of this committee makes a public statement of this kind
in a publication that goes to many thousands of people and may, there-
fore, influence public opinion while the hearing is still in process, it
deprives me of hope that the committee will fairly appraise the facts.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, were you taking this statement
of what you read of the chairman as a personal one to you ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am taking it as a statement on this whole inquiry
of which I am a part.
Senator Ferguson. Could it be possible that evidence in this com-
mittee does show exactly what the chairman said? Leave yourself
out of it. I am talking about the other evidence not concerning you.
Mr. Lattimore. You mean accusatory evidence, some of it rather
obviously biased and prejudiced with no clarification from the many
defendants yet in the picture? No, I don't think it's possible to
make a fair appraisal under those circumstances.
Senator Ferguson. Would you say that if seven or eight witnesses
who wrote for IPH had appeared in this room and when asked the
question at the time that they wrote as to whether or not they were or
were not Communists and they refused to answer on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate them after there was evidence in the
record that they were Communists ; that this IPR then had been pene-
trated by Communists?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am saying here
Senator Ferguson. Answer my question.
Mr. Lattimore. That I see no hope
Senator Ferguson. I am not asking you what you see.
Mr. Lattimore. That the committee will fairly appraise the facts
as they regard me.
Senator Ferguson. Answer my question. With seven or eight wit-
nesses testifying as I have said, would you say it would be a fair state-
ment by the chairman that it had been penetrated by Communists?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I come to the question of these witnesses
later in my statement.
Senator Ferguson. Can you answer my questions ?
Mr. Latitmore. At the moment I would say that it is a biased and
prejudiced action to make a public statement of this kind from such
a position of responsibility as the chairman of this committee at any
time before all the evidence is in, including the rebuttal evidence.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2925
' Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, you have made the statement
that there was not any Communist influence in this. Do you not
think it would have been well for you to hold your opinion until all
the evidence was in?
Mr. Lattimore. Excuse me, Senator, the discussion up to tliis
point has not been about whether there was any Communist influence
in such a vague thing as "in all this" or "in this," I forget your exact
terms. The discussion has been about Pacific Affairs, which I edited,
and about my responsibility for that.
Senator Fergusox. You are not named in the United States Reports,
are you? Your name was not used in relation to this sentence that
you read ?
Mr. Latt'imore. As one of those who for the first time in something
like 8 months is being given an opportunity to say something in public
for himself, I think I am entitled to make that statement, Senator.
Senator Fergusox. But you were named in this statement?
jSIr. Latitmore. No. I was not named.
Senator Ferguson. In relation to the sentence
Mr. Lattimore. I was not named, but the statement which I am
quoting is one of a kind to implicate anybody concerned with the
Institute of Pacific Relations.
Senator Fergusox. Why did you adopt that sentence as meaning
you TA-hen there was other testimony in the record showing that Com-
munists had penetrated the IPR?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am simply referring to a statement made
while an investigation is still in process which I consider a prejudicial
statement.
Senator Ferguson. Yes, but you are criticizing the Chair for mak-
ing a statement when there was evidence in this record showing that
Communists had penetrated. I am leaving you out of the question
entirely, that Communists had penetrated the IPR. You are criti-
cizing the chairman's statement of that.
Mr. Lattimore. I do not see the justification, Senator, for such a
statement in characterization of the whole xAien the evidence applies
to only a part. This statement does not say in part or as far as the
hearings have gone, or without prejudice to those who may be innocent,
or anything of that kind. There is no reservation in it.
Senator Ferguson. Do you think that that statement indicates that
everyone co)inected with tlie IPR was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that statement means exactly what it says.
Senator Ferguson. Does it say that?
]Mr. Lattimore. That Senator McCarran came to the conclusion that
it was taken over by Communist design and made a vehicle and so
forth and that it was also used for espionage purposes. The fact
that some individuals may have refused to testify whether they were
ever Communists is thus creating a belief in any reasonable mind
that they probably were at one time Communists or may still be
Communists is still not evidence that they took over the institute
or that they controlled it or that they used it for conveying informa-
tion to Soviet Russia.
Senator Watkins. Mr. Lattimore, you understand that this is a
seven-man committee, do you not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
88348— 52— pt. 9 3
2926 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Watkins. And that the chairman obviously was not try-
ing to speak for anybody but himself. As far as I am concerned I
am trying to keep my mind open on this question, and it does not
help any for you to come along and make charges like that.
Mr. Lattimore. I appreciate that.
Senator Smith. Was there any question that Field was a Com-
munist ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe he has refused to testify, hasn't he ?
Senator Smith. I thought he admitted.
]\Ir. Lattimore. I don't know ; is it in the record ?
Senator Smith. He had a Communist demonstration before the
White House, did he not ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know what the record has in that respect,
Senator.
Senator Smith. Have you read all this record now, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think I read most of it once. Some of the more
recent testimony that hasn't been printed I haven't read yet.
Senator Smith. Could you reach any conclusion if you did not have
any interest in this matter, the same as Senator McCarran, as far as
it has gone?
Mr. Lattimore. ]My primary conclusion on reading the record, as
I state precisely later on, is that the record shows that no witness
has been subjected to examination, much less cross-examination, to
test his veracity or the validity of his evidence.
Senator Smith. Do you uaderstand that this is a trial or it is in
the nature of a grand jury procedure? You know the difference?
Mr. Lattimore. I am sorry I don't.
Senator Smith. You know that a grand jury proceeding is one in
which you are trying to get facts on which to base a charge. This is
a grand jury. In a trial you say, "This man is accused of being"
guilty. Is he innocent or guilty?" You see a distinction, I know,
between those. You understand that this was an inquiry in the
nature of a grand jury proceeding to see what are the facts on which,
charges might be based. I guess your counsel will agree with that
distinction.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, wouldn't even an all-powerful and care-
ful grand jury be somewliat interested in the quality of its witnesses?
Senator Smith. Absolutely, but you cannot do everything in one
hearing or 1 day or for that matter 1 year.
Mr. Fortas. Senator, could Ave have a recess?
I\Ir. SouRwixE. C^ould I have just one question to tie up that para-
grapli and then go to the recess?
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. SouRAViNE. I thi]ik tlio question has been asked before, but not
directly answered. When you said that you saw no hope that this
committee Avould fairly appraise the facts, did you mean to charge
that the committee is biased?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that question has been asked in at least
two or three forms already. INIr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. I think it has. Will you answer ?
Mr. Lattimore. My feeliug T expressed as clearly as possible in the
words I have here, simply that I see no hope that this committee will
fairly appraise the facts.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2927
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you make a technical distinction between in-
ability to appraise the facts fairly and being biased ?
Mr. Lattisioke. Those aren't the only two alternatives, Mr. Sour-
wine.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Do 3'on make a technical distinction between those
two alternatives?
Mr. Lattimore. I would not make a technical distinction between
those two alternatives only when they are not the only alternatives
that apply to this instance.
Mr. SouRWiXE. Do j^ou make a technical distinction between those
and other alternatives?
Mr. LATTi:\roRE. 1 will say that my statement is primarily based on
the impression that I have from a reading of the proceedings as they
have thus far been published of a general attitude of minds being made
up in advance.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you not think that being biased and being un-
able fairly to appraise the facts are substantially the same thing ( Do
you want to make a distinction between them?
Mr. Lattijiiore. Mr. Sourwine, I am no scholar of philosophy.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you want to make a distinction between them?
Do you want to make a distinction here between being biased and
being unable fairl}" to ap]:)raise the facts?
JMr. Lattimore. Being biased or being unable to
Mr. Sourwine. Fairly appraise the facts.
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I will rejoin the split infinitive, unable to ap-
praise the facts fairly.
Mr. SouKw^iNE. Mr. Chairman, I Avitiich'aw that question. I am
anxious to get over to tlie next page where ]\Ir. Lattimore makes it
clear that he is opposed to making a technical distinction.
Senator Ferguson. Just a moment; I might ask a question.
Senator O'Conor. Senator Ferguson.
Senator Ferguson. There is not any doubt, Mr. Lattimore, that you
have made up your mind about the committee as to what you read from
the United States Reports?
Mr. Lattimore. I made up my mind primarily on one thing, Sena-
tor, and that is that I am an innocent man.
Senator Ferguson, Well, would you say that your opinion is biased
about this committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, if you want to go on with this game of se-
mantics, I would say that from my point of view if you draw a diagram
I stand at the center of this picture and it's very hard to be biased in
the center. You can be biased at any point departing from the center,
but it's extremely difficult to be biased at the center, to stand at the
center as I am and you are what you are.
Senator O'Conor. We will take a recess now until 20 minutes
after 4.
(A short recess was taken.)
Senator O'Conor. The hearing will please come to order.
All right, Mr. Lattimore, will you proceed?
Mr. Lattimore. To give a false appearance of reality to this night-
mare of outrageous lies, shaky hearsay, and undisguised personal spite,
the subcommittee has put into the record letters, memoranda, book
reviews, and other items from the files of the Institute of Pacific
Relations.
2928 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, that is a long paragraph. Might I
ask a question at the end of that sentence ?
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Dr. Lattimore, who do you charge with "undis-
guised personal spite"?
Mr. Lattimore. That comes later in my statement, Mr. Sourwine.
Senator Smith. Let us hear it now; I know I have no personal
spite.
Mr. Lattimore. I am glad you don't.
Senator Smith, ^^liy should I?
Senator Watkins. I am in the same position I indicated, nobody
makes up my mind. I say you are not helping by discussing the com-
mittee to start with.
JNlr. Lattimore. Senator, I am trying to say that the subcommittee
started to put into the record letters, memoranda, book reviews, and
other items.
Mr. Sourwine. Who do you charge with "undisguised personal
spite," sir?
Mr. Lattimore. May I look through the-
Mr. Sourwine. You know who you refer to. Do you have to read
that statement to learn who you refer to?
Mr. Lattimore. One rather obvious example of personal spite is one
of your former employees. Miss Freda Utley. I should say
Mr. Sourwine. Has Miss Utley testified jjefore this committee?
Mr. Lattimore. Miss LTtley was in the employ of this committee and
presumably helped to recruit and prepare some of the other witnesses.
Mr. JNIoRRis. Do you know an}' witness that Miss Utley has helped to
recruit, Mr. Lattimore ?
Senator O'Conor. Jnst a moment; Mr. Morris has a question.
Mr. Morris. Do you know of any one witness who Miss Utley helped
to recruit for this committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no idea. I know that Miss Utley showed her
personal spite when she testified.
]Mr. IMoRRis. That is not the question.
Mr. Lattimore. When she testified before the Tydings committee
a couple of years ago, and then she was hired by this committee for a
couple of months.
Mr. Sourwine. "\"\nien you referred to "this nightmare," were you
referring to the proceedings of the Tydings committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. I was referring "to this nightmare of outrageous
lies, shaky hearsay, and undisguised personal spite," presented before
this subcommittee.
Mr. Sourwine. Yes. Now the "undisguised personal spite" that
you refer to as presented
Mr. Lattimore. Which includes Karl Wittfogel, would be a good
example. I should think Professor McGovern and Professor Cole-
grove, both of Northwestern University.
Mr. Sourwine. Now we are getting at it. Who else would you
include in your charges of "undisguised personal spite" ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, I have read through and endeavored
to clarify as much as one brain can hold it, an enormous mass of
testimony already issued by this committee, and if you will give me
time I would be very glad to come in tomorrow with some more
specific identifications.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2929
Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman.
Senator O'Conor. Senator Smith.
Senator Smith. Here is a fairly simple statement, "and undis-
guised personal spite." That means personal spite that anybody
can see; that is undisguised. Now if the author cannot tell us who
it is that has this spite, I do not know whether we should even con-
sider this statement any more if it is so flimsy that he cannot tell
you who it is that has personal spite.
Mr. Lattimore. I have given certain examples.
Senator Smith. You have not named anybody on this committee.
Mr. Lattimore. Presented before.
Senator O'Conor. Are we to understand, then, Mr. Lattimore, that
you do not intend that to be applicable to any member of this com-
mittee ?
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr, Lattimore, your whole sentence jays the sub-
committee has done something and tells why you think the committee
has done it.
Mr. Lattimore. The subcommittee has put into the record.
Mr. Sourwine. Yes, sir. Why do you say that the committee has
put into the record certain things '? Do you not say that the subcom-
mittee has done that "to give a false appearance of reality to this
nightmare * * *," meaning the proceedings of this subcommittee?
Mr. Lattimore. Certainly.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You say ''this nightmare of outrageous lies, shaky
hearsay, and undisguised personal spite * * *.'' Are you not then
charging that this subconnnittee has done certain things, namely^
put matters into the record in order "to give a false appearance of
reality" to the proceedings of this committee ? Is that not what you
are saying there?
Mr. Lattimore. "To give a false appearance of reality to this night-
mare of outrageous lies, shaky headsay, and undisguised personal
spite," and so forth. I specified below that a large part of this comes
from tlie files of the Institute of Pacific Relations.
Mr. Sotjrwine. But you have indentified
Mr. Lattimore. I said on the previous page — no, at the top of this
page — that I do not believe, that I have no hope, that this committee
■will fairly appraise the facts, and this is part of my supporting state-
ment.
Mr. SouRWiNE. I am not challenging you on what you are saying,
sir, at the moment : I am trying to make the record clear as to what
precisely you are charging. Go ahead, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. This material has been presented in such confu-
sion, and years and dates have been so jumbled, as to make it impossi-
ble for ordinary citizens who are not experts on the Far East to judge
whether a problem is being discussed as it was at the time, as it might
have been, or as it is now.
Mr. SouRAVHSTE. Mr. Chairman, I have two questions about that sen-
tence. You say the material has been presented in confusion, sir.
Did you find it confusing ?
Mr. Lattimore. Very.
Mr. Souravine. You say that years and dates have been jumbled.
Is there any docmnent that you know of that has been introduced in
the hearing record to date which has been misidentified as to date?
2930 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I mean a confusion in the order in which dates and
subjects have been presented.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You take issue with the order in which they have
been presented. Will you answer as to your knowledge whether any
document has been put in the record and improperly identified as to
date ?
Mr. Lattimore. I know of no such example, and I wasn't talking
about any such thing.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Go ahead.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator O'Conor. Senator Ferguson.
Senator Ferguson. You are criticizing the committee for taking a
witness and going through that particular witness on documents and
dates even though it may skip certain periods. You would w^ant the
committee to bring a witness back, have all the witnesses here, and
put it in, all the testimony of 1 year, in at that period so that you could
judge the evidence of all the witnesses for a particular year; is that
what you are after?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, my impression from trying to go through all
this material and reduce it to some order for the purpose of answering
these charges against me is that it is extremely difficult to do so because
the allegations jump all over the place from year to year, the docu-
ments of different years are introduced at various points.
Senator Ferguson. Is that not because witnesses have knowledge
of certain documents and not knowledge of other documents ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know. Senator. To some extent the presen-
tation of documents seems to have been, according to the record, at the
instance of counsel of the committee rather than of the witnesses them-
selves in some cases at least.
Senator Smith. I would like to ask a question.
Senator O'Conor. Senator Smith.
Senator Smith. Mr. Lattimore, you realize that every witness that
has testified has testified under oath here?
Mr. Lat'timore. Quite so.
Senator Smith. Do you recognize that that system of having wit-
nesses in courts or what-not under oath is the only system that you
can have when you start to take the testimony of a person ? You would
say, would you not, that when a court swears a witness to testify to the
truth that is all the court can do at the moment; is that not correct?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Senator Smith. The court cannot know in advance what the wit-
ness is going to say precisely ; can it ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, in the case of this committee the practice ap-
parently has been to hear every witness, or practically every witness, in
executive session before and then to hear them in public. By the
time the public record is published it includes a number of refer-
ences showing that witnesses have been questioned on the basis of
something that they have previously said in executive testimony which
would presumably give the maximum opportunity for presenting
problems in chronological order and with the documents for those
problems introduced at that point in the record.
Senator Smith. You approve of having executive sessions to first
give the witness a chance to testify without publication ; do you not,
or do you ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2931
Mr, Lattimore. I have never been a Senator, Senator, and I can't
■solve that kind of problem.
Senator Smith. I am asking you whether or not you prefer to have
and think it would be fair to have an executive session first to try
to get at the facts before they were brought out in public?
Mr. Lattimore. I never had the responsibility of handling that kind
of problem.
Senator Smith. I am not asking you that.
Mr. Lattimore. I just don't want to give an ofl'-the-cuff answer
on a problem I have never handled.
Senator Smith. How would you conduct an investigation of this
sort if you were trying to get at the facts? Would you first have the
witness sworn or would you take him unsworn ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, Senator, I certainly would not let months
and months go by before people who have been accused of very vile
charges
"to"-
Senator S]\eith. I did not ask you that question.
Mr. Lattimore. Not given a rebuttal.
Senator Smith. I am asking you how, step by step, you would con-
duct an investigation. Would you first swear the witness, or would
you prefer to have him unsworn ?
Mr. Lattimore. Have any witnesses been unsworn ?
Senator Smith. No; I said would you prefer to have a witness
sworn or unsworn.
INIr. Lattimore. I am sorry, Senator; you are asking technical
questions.
Senator Smith. Not at all. I am going to the question of whether
or not this committee has gone on in good faith in swearing witnesses
to try to get the truth.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I said nothing about swearing witnesses.
Senator Smith. But you attacked the committee here. You said
that it is "To give a false appearance." That is what you said we
are trying to do, give a "false appearance of reality to this nightmare
of outrageous lies, shaky hearsay, and undisguised personal spite."
Up to now you have not pointed out who on this committee has per-
sonal spite against you.
Mr. Lattimore. I have.
Senator O'Conor. Wliat did you say ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I have.
Senator Watkins. On the committee ?
Senator O'Conor. Senator Smith said "on the committee," said
you disavowed that previously?
Mr. Lattimore. No, no, thank you.
Senator Smith. So you do not want to tell us how you would pro-
ceed in conductino; an investigation when you are trying to get the
facts?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I don't think my amateur opinion of
how
Senator Smith. Do you not know that what we are doing here is
trying to get the facts? Nobody has been charged with a crime so
far as I know here. Do you not understand that we are just merely
trying to get the facts to start with ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am saying that I should have liked to
see witnesses given an earlier opportunity to answer charges. I should
2932 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
like to see some examination and cross-examination. Those are ques-
tions on which I can answer. The question on whether you ask a
witness to swear standing on his head or sitting down, that kind of
thing, is just beyond my competence.
Senator Smith. We have asked you to testify under oath; have
we not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Senator Smith. And you are testifying under oath?
]Mr. Lattimore. I am.
Senator Smith. And we are cross-examining you ; are we not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Senator Smith. What is the question about that? You have a
chance to say anything you want to say.
Mr. Lattimore. I haven't accused anybody of being a Communist
on inadequate evidence, but I am being cross-examined.
Senator Smith. Who has ?
Mr. Lattimore. A whole string of your witnesses.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Who are you accusing of what?
Senator Smith. They swear under oath.
IVIr. Lattimore. But they haven't been cross-examined.
Senator Smith. Well, whenever they get ready to charge anybody
with being a Communist, they will be cross-examined at the trial of the
case. We are not tr3dng the case now. You seem to misconceive the
purpose of an investigation, that is just to get the facts to start with.
I would not want you accused here without giving you a full chance to
reply, not at all. That is the reason I understood we were going to
hear everything you have to say, and I am in favor of that, giving
you a chance to explain everything.
Senator Watkins. This is not a trial, Mr. Lattimore. If you were
in court and said the things you said to this committee to a court, you
would be promptly held in contempt of court and would be in jail. So
this is not a trial. You are getting a lot better treatment than you
would get in a trial if you made those statements to the judge.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I have made a statement here which I have
been working on for months, in which I have tried to give as orderly
as possible a presentation of what I want to say in as orderly a way
as I know how to do it. I have made my statement and then bring-
in what else I have to
Senator Watkins. Do you want us to consider it fairly, impartially,
and without bias? Answer me that. Do you want us to consider it
that way ?
Mr. Lattimore. Certainly.
Senator Watkins. Wliy do 3^ou start out abusing us if you want
us to do that ?
Mr. Laitimore. Senator, I have to characterize the kind of evidence
that has been piled into this record.
Senator Watkins. You are not characterizing the evidence; you
are characterizing the committee.
Mr. Latit]more. Well, I am characterizing the way in which this
kind of evidence has been piled up with no opportunity for rebuttal,
and very important, I think.
Senator Watkins. You are here for rebuttal now.
Mr. Lattimore. And no testing of the credibility or veracity of the
witnesses.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2933
Senator Smith, How do you think we ought to test your credibility
and your veracity? We are taking you on what you say. How do
you sa^^ we test your credibility and veracity right now in your own
case ?
Mr. Lattimore, Senator, I tliink all of you are doing the best you
can.
Senator Smith. We are doing just what you said we were not doing
then ; are we not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, Senator, I think that the kind of examina-
tion to which I have been subjected for several hours now, has been
rather markedly absent in the case of some of the witnesses who have
been making the accusations to which I am trying to reply.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, you are accusing, are you not,
certain witnesses coming before this committee with outrageous lies?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Ferguson. That is what you are saying about other wit-
nesses ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Ferguson. Now why do you then censure other witnesses
who came in to say that you had not told the truth ? Why should you
censure them and not want them to censure you ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I think that thus far I have probably
not read a comiDlete sentence without interruption, whereas the wit-
nesses to whom I refer have been given a very free hand.
Senator Ferguson. Did anyone accuse you
Mr. Lattimore. Without the same kind of
Senator Ferguson. Did anyone accuse you as being an outrageous
liar?
Mr. Lattimore. By implication, certainly.
Senator Ferguson. You are using not implications but the exact
words.
Mr. Lattimore. They are accusing me of being a Communist, and
I am denying it. Wouldn't that be an obvious lie ?
Senator Smith. We do not know whether it is or not.
Mr. Lattimore. All I am trying to do, Senator, is to get out a
straight statement.
Senator O'Conor. Just a minute, Mr. Lattimore is speaking. Go
ahead.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am not legally trained myself. I am
trying to read a statement that I have made in as simple English as
I can, and I have been interrupted repeatedly. I don't want to give
an impression of evasiveness or hair-splitting or anything of that
kind, but I cannot help but be conscious of what I believe is one dif-
ference between the grand fury procedure which you yourself men-
tioned not long ago and this kind of procedure, namely, that I believe
that a grand jury is not usuall}^ composed exclusively of trained
lawyers.
Senator Smith. I do not know of any grand jury
Mr. Lattimore. When on the otlier liand I am perhaps unwar-
rantedly aware of the fact that I am sitting here under conditions
in which my own lawyer is not allowed to tender advice to me while
I am asked rather complicated questions involving legal points which
miglit be pitfalls for me, to which I have to try to reply to the best
of my ability.
2934 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Lattimore, is that not begging the question ?
You were advised, and if you were not advised, you are now, that on
any of these so-called complicated questions if you are unable to com-
prehend them you have the right to consult with your counsel. Why
do you give the impression in the record that you are being deprived
of the right of consultation with counsel ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, my counsel is not allowed to intervene
at any time.
Senator O 'Conor. You are allowed to consult him,
Mr. Lattimore. At any time he thinks I may need advice and I in
my ignorance may be at the most need of advice at any moment
Senator O 'Conor. It is evident that you know when you need ad-
vice, and you know better than anybody else when you need it.
Senator Watkins. Most of the witness' statements up to date have
been charges against the committee, and now he is including some of
the witnesses, and I think the committee had the right immediately to
find out what he meant by what he was saying, who and all that.
Now v^'e had not had any witness before that has shown the con-
tempt for the committee that this witness has and made the charges
that he has. I think we have had a perfect right to question him on
that. I think he comes in and says he cannot get a fair trial, and im-
mediately afterward he will say he did not have a fair trial.
I came here with an open mind to try to get your statement. When
you keep on attacking and attacking it seems to me you cannot be fair.
Mr, FoRTAS. I am counsel for Mr. Lattimore. Do I have the
privilege of saying something here ?
Senator Smith. If you can give us any facts, I say you should.
Senator O'Conor, What did you wish to say?
Mr. FoRTAS, I wish to address myself to this progi'am that the
distinguished Senator Smith raised — that is, about procedure. It is,
after all, a legal question. It is very difficult for a lawyer to sit here
and hear statements that affect the interest of his client and to be in
a position where he can't say anything. I am sure that all of you
gentlemen who are distinguished lawyers appreciate that.
Now as to Mr. Lattimore's consulting with me, he is sitting here
under an intense barrage questions from one, two, three, four, five
distinguished gentlemen, and his concentration is intense upon those
questions, and obviously he can't be expected to know when to con-
sult counsel.
Now of course I have a very fundamental difference of opinion
with Senator Smith as to the purpose of a Senate investigation, I
believe that the purpose of a Senate investigation is to develop the
facts, both sides of the facts, impartially and fairly. It is not my
position or my prerogative to say whether that has been achieved
here or not. I haven't read your hearings, and it is none of my busi-
ness here. But it does seem to me that when Mr. Lattimore is con-
fronted with a choice as to whether this is a grand jury or petty jury
proceeding that he is obviously at a serious disadvantage.
If Senator Smith says that it is like a grand jury proceeding, it's
like a grand jury proceeding so far as Mr. Lattimore is concerned.
To me there are a great manj^ differences.
Now, Mr. Chairman, if I may suggest it, this witness has read a page
and a half of this statement. The statement says that "I believe I owe
it to you to state the reasons for what is a serious accusation of this
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC KELATIONS 2935
committee." As I read the statement it is a serious accusation of the
committee, and I have read the statement, and he proceeds to set forth
the reasons why he makes that accusation. He may be right; he may
be wrong. He may be justified ; he may be completely unjustified, but,
Senator, may I respectfully beg of you that the witness be allowed to
lay before the members of this committee, most of whom, I take it,
have not read the statement, what the reasons are and then may I
respectfully suggest that you go ahead and cross-examine him on it,
but I suggest that no hmnan being can present a statement in that
fashion.
I know many of you gentlemen ; I have the greatest respect for all of
you, and I am sure that it is merely because you do not realize, as I
keenly do, the strain under which this man is and has been for many
days and many weeks that causes this. I beg your pardon. Senator,
for getting emotional about this, but I do believe that it should be said.
Senator O'Conor. The committee has considered the matters. The
sessions are not to be prolonged; certainly they have not been thus
far. We did not begin until some time approaching 3 o'clock. At the
request of the witness a recess was taken, and we are going to continue
only to 5 o'clock. So that in full time he will not have been on the
stand much over 2 hours, so it is not too long. He has enjoyed advice
of counsel during the preparation of the statement, and he has shown
himself to be capable.
The point I was making is that he was giving an erroneous impres-
sion that he is not enjoying advice of counsel. The point is that he has
the right to advise with you at any time. If that has not been suffi-
ciently indicated before, it has now.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Fortas, if this were a grand jury procedure
you would not be entitled to be in the grand jury.
Mr. FoRTAs. No, and he would not be confronted with a group of
skilled lawyers.
Senator Ferguson. Would he not have the Attorney General and
would he not have any number of assistants to the Attorney General
and would he not be before the grand jury?
Mr. FoRTAS. The point I am making, and I beg of you to consider,
is a human matter. The point that I am making to you is that the
strain upon a witness of having questions shot at him, which is per-
fectly appropriate procedure, I am not criticizing you, I am asking
you to bear in mind that strain, of having questions shot at him by a
number of very skillful lawyers, is very great indeed, and it is so great
as to preclude his use with ordinary intelligence of the availability of
counsel for consultation.
Senator Ferguson. "W^iat length of sessions would you desire ?
Mr. FoRTAs. It's not a matter of the length of session. You have
been very kind, and when I saw the witness was under great fatigue
and asked the chairman for a recess I got it, and I am sure that you
will continue to extend that courtesy. But, gentlemen, these proceed-
ings are a tremendous strain, I have seen that with people that I have
handled, and I beg you to keep that in mind and let this man lay out
these reasons which will retraverse many of the things which j^ou have
already asked him.
Senator Ferguson. You are again asking this committee to conduct
the examination by allowing the witness to read this statement without
cross-examination ?
2936 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. FoRTAS. No ; I am not.
Senator Ferguson. I, for one, do not believe that tliat is the way
to conduct this examination. You and I differ on that problem. I
am sure, Mr. Fortas, that if you were over here you would want to
ask some questions.
Mr. FoRTAS. I don't know what my attitude would be, Senator. I
am sure that I would want to have the witness say what he had to say
in an orderly fashion. I don't believe this witness has done it.
Senator Smith. I think the difficulty there, Mr. Chairman, is that
these statments which we have cross-examined him on are manifestly
unfair statements which he has made about the committee and about
witnesses. Now I can understand how Mr. Lattimore might sit down
and write this or dictate it in a free-hand fashion and make statements
that he does not have proof of, and that is a thing that he can do
until he is challenged.
We are challenging Mr. Lattim ore's statement that we are trying to
give a false appearance; we are challenging the statement that the
committee will not fairly appraise the facts, not that it is not able to
do so but will fairly appraise the facts. That is to say that we will
improperly and unfairly appraise the facts.
I resent that because I do not think this committee has any preju-
dice against Mr. Lattimore; certainly I do not have, and I do not
believe the rest of you have. We may have had witnesses that were
prejudiced against him, but that is not our fault as long as we swear
them to tell the truth.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, may I take up one thing?
Senator O'Connor. The witness.
Mr. Lattimore. Namely, that if you believe that this committee in
its published proceedings has created the impression that this is a
committee before which a witness could appear with only a statement
that he had light-heartedly, and I think you said free-handedly, dic-
tated
Senator Smith. I did not say "light-heartedly."
Mr. Lattimore. I think you underrate the committee.
Senator Watkins. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator O'Conor. Senator Watkins.
Senator Watkins. I want to make a comment with respect to the
suggestions of Mr. Fortas that we wait until he is through.
Mr. FoRTAS. I beg your pardon; with the subject matter.
Senator Watkins. If you are going to go through 50 pages, by
that time the Senators have to go to other matters, and we have to ask
questions as we go along because it has been my experience that we
never ask them. We have to ask them as the witness goes along.
He has raised the charges against the committee. He has not gotten
down to facts.
Mr. Lattimore. I have been trying.
Senator Watkins. But you did not get by the charge statement
against the committee, and we have a right to know.
Mr. Fortas. You haven't a copy of the statement, but you will notice
that on page 8 there is a roman II, and all that I had in mind was that
the witness be allowed to get through with this one subject matter so
that you can see and cross-examine him on what he says about that par-
ticular subject matter.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2937
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Clifiinnan, I move that it is 5 o'clock and
we recess. The press has had this ; the public have had it, and the only
people that are going to miss anything are those people who are now in
the room and who have not had the opportunity to read it.
Senator O'Conok. It has already been determined to recess at 5, and
it is almost that.
Mr. Lattimore. May I make one remark ?
Senator O'Conor. The witness.
Mr. Lattimore. Please do not think that I was trying to accuse the
Chair or the committee of denying me advice of counsel. I am per-
fectly aware it was made expressly clear by Senator McCarran at the
very beginning that I am entitled to advice of counsel when I ask for it^
All I was trying to point out is that this is a one-way procedure and.
that my counsel is not entitled to intervene when he as a lawyer might
see that I am trying to answer these complicated legal questions from
trained lawyers, might, as a layman, be getting into trouble that I did
not appreciate and therefore couldn't ask him about in advance.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Lattimore, in retrospect as you look back on
this afternoon's hearing has there been any point where you would
have preferred Mr. P'ortas to advise you when you realize that you did
not ask for advice ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I don't know if you realize the kind of
strain that this hearing is, but it requires such an intense concentration
on each question as it is asked that I at this moment could not give you
an intelligent recapitulation of this afternoon.
Senator Ferguson. He may be by morning.
Senator O'Conor. But you cannot refer to a single instance where-
you were at a disadvantage by reason of that fact?
Mr. Lattimore. Not offhand, no, liecause my mind is now a maze.
Senator O'Conor. At this point then we will as previously agreed
stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5 p. m., the committee adjourned to reconvene at 10
a. m., Wednesday, February 27, 1952.)
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC EELATIONS
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 1952
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration
OF THE Internal Securitt Act and Other
Internal Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. G.
Tlie subcommittee met at 10 : 55 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room
424 of the Senate Office Building, Senator Pat McCarran (chairman
of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Senators McCarran, O'Conor, Smith, Ferguson, Jenner,
^nd Watkins.
Also present: Senators Langer and McCarthy; J. G. Sourwine,
committee counsel ; and Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel.
The Chairman. The subcommittee will come to order.
The chairman on yesterday intended to but omitted to make this
statement to the audience, that the committee prefers that there should
be no demonstration of any kind to any statement made by any wit-
ness, either approving or disapproving of the statement. We hope that
the audience may see fit to conform to that rule.
TESTIMONY OF OWEN lATTIMOEE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
ABE FORTAS
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Lattimore, you were interrogated yester-
day, and you covered about three pages of your statement. You have a
statement there of 50 pages. Would you desire to insert that full
statement in the record, or do you desire to read the statement and be
interrogated on it, paragraph by paragraph ? And if you insert it in
the record, as you may do if you see fit, it will become a part of the
record, but you will be cross examined on your statement and on other
matters pertaining to your statement and your position. Which do
you wish to do?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, may I at this moment avail myself
of your previous permission to use my one-way communication with
my counsel?
The Chairman. Y'ou can have a two-way communication if you
want to.
(Mr. Lattimore conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lattimore. I would like to read my statement, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Very well. You will be interrogated as you go
along.
Senator O'Conor, I will have to ask you to take over. I have to go to
another assignment. Thank you very much.
2939
2940 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
(Senator O'Conor assnmecl the chair.)
Senator O'Conor. You may proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. I am not quite sure where I got to yesterday. I
believe it was near the bottom of page 2, is that right? Does the
record show?
Senator O'Conor. I do not think that you got through the second
paragraph, but the sentence beginning, "This material has been
presented," and so forth. I think you were being interrogated on
that. In any event, I think time might be saved, if you so desired,
to take it up at that point and just read on.
Mr. Lattimore. This material has been presented in su-ch con-
fusion, and years and dates have been so jumbled, as to make it im-
possible for ordinary citizens who are not experts on the Far East to
judge whether a problem is being discussed as it was at the time, as it
might have been, or as it is now. I do not know whether this is
chargeable to the committee or its staff
Mr. Sourwine. At that point
Senator O'Conor. I think you should be permitted to finish the
sentence and the paragraph.
Mr. Lattimore. But no one can read the record without realizing
that this is what has happened.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Lattimore, do you mean by that statement that you do not
know whether this is chargeable to the committee or its staff, to say
that in your opinion there has been a deliberate jumbling by either the
committee or its staff, or both?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, I believe the record as it has been
accumulated shows just what I have said, a jumbling that makes it
impossible for ordinary citizens to judge whether a problem is being
discussed as it was at the time, as it might have been, or as it is now.
The responsibility for that is clearly the responsibility of the com-
mittee. I am obviously not in a position to know how far the com-
mittee has exercised its own individual and collective responsibility,
hoAV far it has delegated it to counsel, or exactly how this has been
done.
Senator Ferguson. Might I inquire? Is your complaint, Mr. Lat-
timore, against the conmiittee, the way it has handled the investiga-
tion as far as you are concerned, or does it go to the investigation of
IPR and other people connected with IPR? Is this a charge on all
matters of investigation, or is it only as it relates to you, tliat you may
be concerned with the investigation ?
Mr. Lattimore. This is a statement, Senator, of my opinion "on the
record as it stands to date, in wliich I am involved.
Senator Ferguson. There are many other people involved, also,
is tliat not correct ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is correct.
Senator Ferguson. And tliere is the question of the relationship of
the IPR with the State Department, is that not correct?
Mr. Lattimore. If any, j^es.
Senator Ferguson. Wei], now, you say "if any." Do you tliink
that there is no connection wliatever between IPR and \\\e State
Department, or any of the State Department officials?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, you liave used tlie word "connection,"
which may mean different things to different people.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2941
Senator Ferguson. Tliat is true.
Mr. Lattimore. At this point I should like, if I may, to say a few
words as carefully considered as I know how to make them.
Senator Smith. Did you not ask him a question ? I do not see why
we cannot have plain, simple answers to the questions.
Senator Ferguson. Then we will get along quickly.
Senator O'Conor. Well, I do think that if the question is susceptible
of a direct answer, that might be made; and then any explanatory
statement that you might desire to make in connection with it.
Mr. LAT'riMORE. Senator, I am trying to make a statement on the
thoughts that are guiding me in making my answers, and I think
perhaps if I were allowed to express those thoughts at the present time,
it might clarify other questions coming up, as well as the question
immediately before the committee.
Senator O 'Conor. You may proceed.
Mr. Latitmore. I have been for many years a professional writer.
I am also a university professor. I am accustomed to a careful use
of words. I have tried to boil down into 50 pages what I have to
say about an accumulation of material presented before this com-
mittee in something like 8 months. I have tried to use firm and pre-
cise language.
Yesterday under questioning I felt at times as if perhaps I might
be giving a defensive or what some people might even think evasive
or hair-splitting series of answers to many questions. I want to
make it perfectly clear that I have no intention of evasiveness ; that
1 have said as clearly as I can what I have to say ; that if there is any
hair-splitting, or if there is any playing with alternative choices of
words, that is not my responsibility. It is a consequence of the form
in which questions are asked me.
As I said, I have used firm language. Many of the questions that
have been addressed to me appear — I may be oversensitive on the
subject — but appear as if they were intended to make me either soften
my statements or perhaps in frustration say something more strong
than what I intended to say.
Gentlemen, I am not a lawyer. I am an innocent man trying to
defend himself as best he knows how. I may at times be forced by
this manner of questioning to overstate my reactions. If so, I want
it to be perfectly clear on the record that these are not my words —
they are words put into my mouth by the manner of questioning.
Senator Smith. Could we have one understanding before we pro-
ceed further, Mr. Chairman, that we are not, or I for one am not asking
Professor Lattimore on language. As I understand, all we are ask-
ing him is to state tlie facts in sucli plain and concise language that all
of us can understand what the answers to a question are, instead of
having these long, spun-out discussions, including the comment about
splitting infinitives, which indicates there was some little intention
to quibble about language.
Senator Ferguson. Now, I want to assure you that I was not trying
to put words into your mouth, and I do not intend to so try. I just
want to ask questions, and I want to leave you out of it as mucli as
possible. I am not talking about tliis statement, as far as you person-
ally are concerned now: I am talking about the investigation by this
committee into what I think is a very, very important matter, and that
is the question of penetration of communism into institutions of Amer-
88348—52 — pt. 9 4
2942 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
ica, and for that matter, into other governments and otlier countries.
We are fighting a war involving that very principle. And if we have
to limit our investigation here and be cowed down and fearful that
we are going to offend someone, then we are not going to get very far
in advising the people of America on this great problem of penetra-
tion. And that is why I want to talk about the State Department.
I want to give every man the right to make statements, freedom of
thought, freedom of speech, and I will advocate it with him; but I
think that when that freedom of speech and that freedom of thought
goes to the department of Government that can influence the action
of that Government, then the people ought to be able to thoroughly
go into the matter, not in personalities but in questions of the broad
principles. That is why I asked you the question here now about the
State Department and the IPR.
Forget that you were a trustee for a moment. Let us look into it,
as you said in the statement. I was a member, yes, I was a member of
the IPR. I paid nominal dues. I was a judge in Michigan at the
time that I went into it, and I wanted to learn something about the
facts. Now, let us forget whether we were members. Let us now look
at the IPR and try to ascertain whether or not people did penetrate it,
and what difference does it make to you and to me, except that we
ought to both want to expose it if people did penetrate it. And to
think that I sat here, and if you would have been here you would have
heard people come in and say, "When I wrote those articles for the
IPR, when I wrote a book that was to be used in the public schools,
I refused to answer whether or not I was a Communist."
Mr. Lattimore, I think that you and I ought to be greatly interested
in the problem as to whether or not the IPR was penetrated by com-
munism to the extent that Communists wrote books under the label of
the IPR, that we were members of, and put them in the public schools
of America. I think that the time has come when you and I ought to
forget the personal things and try to ascertain for the benefit of the
United States citizen what is happening by communism, and if we are
going to deal in personalities and if we are going to have arguments
about personalities in this investigation, we are never going to advise
the people.
Let us look at the IPR, and let us take for granted that the people
that were running it were innocent ; but, whether they were innocent
or guilty, if they were penetrated should we not then show tliat to
the public so that in the future there will be no further penetrations?
Now, if we can think of it in that way, maybe we can get somewhere.
Now I will ask you the question, Professor : Did, in your opinion,
the State Department get information from IPR ?
Mr. Lati'imore. Senator, I am in agreement with what you sa}",
especially about not being cowed.
Senator Fergusox. And I do not want you to be cowed.
Mr. Lattimore. I am dealing with, I think, all of the questions that
you have brought up, and I have tried to put them in my statement
in an orderly manner, and to support what I have to say. I have
adverted to this matter of the questioning because it contributes, in
my respectful opinion, to the character of jumbled evidence that I
referred to before, and it leads very frequently to a request to me to
give an offhand statement of something that I have later put in my
prepared statement, in my own words and in my own way, in such
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2943
a manner that I may later be confronted with possibly quibbles about,
"You said it this way on interrogation, and you said it that way in
your statement."
I think, Senator, it would be much more orderly if I were allowed
to proceed with my statement, and then to answer any questions you
like in any order you bring them up.
Senator O'Conor. Just a second. You are not to determine for
the committee how it is to proceed. The chairman gave you the right
this morning to place the entire statement in the record if you so
desired, or to proceed and have the committee to undertake its inter-
rogations as you went along. You consulted with counsel as you
desired to do,'and then you determined that you did not wish to put
your statement in the record in toto.
Now, you are not to tell the committee how it is to proceed. The
question Senator Ferguson asked is a very direct one and a simple
one, and it admits of a clear answer, and we would like very much
to have you address yourself to it and answer it.
Mr. Lattimore. I only meant, Senator, to say how I would like to
proceed.
Senator O'Conor. Fortunately, you are not a member of the com-
mittee, sir, for this purpose.
Mr. Lattimore. Your question again ?
Senator Ferguson. I will put it this way
Senator O'Conor. Let the stenographer read it so the committee
mi^ght have it before them.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I never worked in the State Department.
(The question asked by Senator Ferguson was read by the re-
porter as follows :)
Now I will ask you the question, Professor : Did, in your opinion, the State
Department get information from IPR?
Mr. Lattimore. I have onl}^ an outsider's presumption that mem-
bers of the State Department got information from IPR publications,
as they did from any other publications that might interest them,
on the subject of the Far East.
Senator Ferguson. The reason I asked you that question was — and
I think that your answer brings this up now — you defend two or three
people in this statement, as far as the State Department is concerned,
and you tell the public in this statement that, for instance, Mr. Clubb
was freed by the Loyalty Board. And where did you learn that, if
you know nothing about the State Depai'tment ?
Mr. Lattimore. From the press.
Senator Ferguson. Well, I will ask you whether or not you know
that it is a fact that the State Loyalty Board itself did not clear
Mr. Clubb, and that Mr. Acheson personally, when it went to him
for review, was the one who set aside the ruling of the Board and
freed Mr. Clubb?
Mr. Latti^iore. I have not seen that in the press. Senator.
Senator Ferguson. I am asking you whether or not you know it is
a fact?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't.
Senator Ferguson. Well, then, are you just quoting here in this
statement about these people what you learn in the press rather than
trying to get the facts? You are giving to the public the idea that
2944 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Clubb was freed by tlie Loyalty Board, and I am asking you
whether or not you know it was a fact that that was not a fact ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know that it was not a fact.
Senator Fekgusox. Then why do you give it to this connnittee and
expect this committee not to ask you any questions ?
Mr. Lattimore. You are perfectly free to ask me that question^
Senator. I have given you my answer.
Senator Ferguson. And your answer is that you do not know.
Have you talked to Mr. Clubb about it ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have seen jMr. Clubb since he was cleared: yes.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ask him whether or not the Loyalty
Board found against him, and then when it went up to Mr. Humeisine
he approved tlie Loyalty Board, and when it went to Mr. Achesoii he
reversed the Loyalty Board ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am not either an amateur or a profes-
sional snooper.
Senator Ferguson. I did not ask you that; and I asked you whether
or not you asked Mr. Clubb.
Senator Smith. That is a simple question.
Mr. Lattimore. I accepted Mr. Clubb's word that he had been
cleared.
Senator Ferguson. Did he tell you that he was cleared by the
Loyalty Board ?
Mr. Lattimore. I was not interested in going into post mortems
on the fact, and I congratulated him and then we went on to talk
about other subjects.
Senator Ferguson. Did he tell you why he had resigned ?
Mr. Lattimore. On the subject of his resignation, I did not ask
him why he had resigned. I congratulated him on resigning, and he
later made a statement to the press that he was resigning at this
time because he felt that his career had been permanently damaged,
and that under the system of multiple jeopardy now prevailing, he
might be haled up again at any other time. I accordingly wrote in
my statement that he has taken to heart the now obvious lesson that the
State Department is not a safe place for a man who has been cleared.
That is my opinion.
Senator Ferguson. Did 3^011 discuss that with Mr. Clubb — as to why
he resigned?
Mr. Lattimore. I did not discuss it with him. Senator Ferguson.
He is a friend of mine, and an honorable man, and when he said he
had been cleared, I said, "Thank God." Wliy should I badger him?
Senator Ferguson. Do j'ou know that the State Department on a
number of occasions, Mr. Lattimore, has brought the charges, and
then allowed people to resign; and that up to date, as far as from
the State Department's view, no one has been discharged for loj'^alty
reasons, and we will exclude the Clubb situation. I am asking you
whether or not you know that ?
Mr. Laiitmore. I do not know it, and it is no concern of mine and
no duty of mine as a citizen.
Senator Ferguson. Well, when you raised these questions here
about certain people in the State Department, I wanted to know
whether or not you had actual knowledge.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2945
Senator Smith. Might we inquire as to why — I believe it is on
page 21 — Professor Lattimore even went into the matter of Mr. Chibb
at all 1 What was the purpose in doing that?
Senator Ferguson. That is what I wanted to loiow.
Senator Smith. If you were not concerned with it, what was the
purpose of bringing his name into this statement of yours?
]Mr. Lattimore. Well, Senator, I protest once more at being forced
to take up my statement disjointedly instead of in the orderly manner
that I wanted to do, but I would point out to you that on page 20 I
give my reasons : ^
The three outstanding examples of men sacrificed to the hysteria that has
teen whipped up in this country by the China lobby — a hysteria to which this
committee, I um sorry to say, is contributing — are —
And then I go into the names.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, might I inquire ?
Senator Fergson. You had no personal knowledge, did you, Mr.
Lattimore, on the Service and the Clubb and the Vincent, the three
names that you mentioned here in your statement — you have no per-
sonal knowledge as to what was in the loyalty reports, and the evidence,
and the FBI reports ; have you ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, all three men are men that I have known
for years, and all three men are such trustworthy members of the De-
partment of State that they would not, and I have never asked them
to, talk to me about the internal mechanisms of the Department of
State. My concern is — and again I return to my statement, and again
in a fragment :
I believe that it is as important to the welfare and safety of this country to have
a strong State Department and an able Foreign Service in our diplomacy as it
is to have effective military forces. I believe that^ ■
Senator Ferguson. I agree with you on that.
Mr. Lattimore (reading:)
That the usefulness of our Foreign Servi(^e personnel has already been jeop-
ardized by the work of this committee — both directly by attacks on irreplaceable
personnel, and indirectly by impairing the confidence of the Nation and our
foreign allies in our State Department and by instituting a reign of terror among
our Foreign Service personnel.
Senator Ferguson. That was not my question. Mr. Lattimore, but
I am glad that you read that into the record, and I agree with the first
part, as I indicated.
My question is : Do you know what the charges were, and do you
know what the evidence was, as far as the State Department, the FBI,
and the Loyalty Board are concerned, on these three people named
here in your statement?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, am I a citizen of America, or a sub-
ject of Czechoslovakia or Franco Spain? Am I expected to run
around snooping on my fellow citizens ?
Senator O'Conor. Just a moment, Senator Ferguson.
That statement is entirely unnecessary. The question of Senator
Ferguson did not call for any such outburst as that. Now, will you
kindly confine yourself to the question that is asked, and I think if it
is answered in the same manner in whicli the question is asked, there
will be no difficultv.
2946 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Smith. May we have the question read ?
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Senator O'Conor. You either do or you do not know.
Mr. Lattimore. I Imow the charges as far as they were in the press^
and I do not know the procedures or the documents; unUke Senator
McCarthy, I have not been procuring classified documents.
Senator Ferguson. I am just asking you whether or not you knew;
and you say you do not know ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know.
Senator Ferguson. That is all.
Senator O'Conor. Now, counsel desires to inquire.
Senator Watkins. Yet you passed judgment on all of those situa-
tions ; did you not ?
Senator O'Conor. Senator Watkins asked a question.
Senator Watkins. Now, you say you did not know, and yet you pass
judgment on each one of these cases and you proceed to characterize
their treatment.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am standing on the public record as it
is in the press, as it is in the record of this committee ; and I am some-
what resentful, I tliink naturally, of the implications that I should
have constituted myself a private eye of some kind and gone probing
into matters that are not the ordinary province
Senator Watkins. That is not an answer to what I asked you. Did
you or did you not pass judgment on it ?
]\lr. Lattimore. Pass judgment? I expressed an opinion.
Senator Watkins. That is in the nature of a judgment that they
were given unfair treatment.
Senator Smith. The q,uestion, it seems to me, is whether or not we
expect him to do any snooping, because that is up to his own conscience
to determine, and the question is whether or not he was willing to
make statements in this statement of facts, supposed to be, about
someone that he had not investigated, and I thought that was what
Senator Ferguson asked.
Mr. Lattimore. When it has been stated in the press. Senator, that
a man has received official clearance, that is sufficient for me.
Senator O'Conor. All right, now.
Mr. Sourwine. The witness hasn't answered Senator Ferguson's
question as to whether Mr. Clubb told him why he, Mr. Clubb, was
resigning.
Senator Ferguson. I thinli he answered that by sajdng lie did not.
Mr. Sourwine. Did the witness say Mr. Clubb did not tell him why
he was resigning?
Mv. Lattimore. I told the Senator that I took up the subject by
congratulating him, and that I then saw Mr. Clubb's statement to the
press.
Ml'. Sourwine. Precisely. You told the Senator that you had not
asked Mr. Clubb about his resignation.
Mr. Lattimore. I did not ask Mr. Clubb.
Mr. Sourwine. And you told the Senator that you had read it in
the press, but you did not answer the question as to whether Mr. Clubb
told you why he was resigning ; and, now, did he ?
]\Ir. Lattimore. I said I did not ask Mr. Clubb, and I didn't go into
any post mortem, and there was no conversation on the subject,
Mr. Sourwine. Did he tell j^ou why he was resigning ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2947
Mr. Lattimore. No ; he did not.
Mr. SouRWiNE. He told you that he was resigning ?
]\Ir. Lattimore. I assumed that I knew why he was resigning, and
that was all there was to the conversation.
]\Ir. SouEwiNE. He told you that he was resigning ?
Mr. Lattimore. No. I think I saw him after his resignation had
been announced.
Mr. SouRwiNE. He did not tell you that he was resigning?
Mr. LxVTTi3i0RE. He didn't tell me beforehand that he was going to
resign.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You simply met him and congratulated him on it,
and there was no discussion as to why he had resigned ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. SouRwiNE. It had already been in the papers with his state-
ment ?
Senator O'Conor. Now, if you will, the bottom of page 2, then.
"We will proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. All kinds of attempts have been made to depict
me as a Communist or a Soviet agent. I have in fact been falsely
identified as a fellow traveler, sympathizer, or follower of the Com-
munist line or promoter of Communist interests. Now I want to
make my position clear. I am not interested in fine or technical dis-
tinctions. I am not interested in graduations or degrees of disloyalty.
I have no use for fancy, legalistic distinctions. I am none of these
things and have never been. I am not and have never been a Com-
munist, a Soviet agent, a sympathizer, or any other kind of promoter
of communism or Communist interests, and all of these are nonsense..
I so testified long ago, under oath, before the Tydings subcommittee,
and I do so again.
Mr. Sourwine. ]\Ir. Chairman, if I might break in, there are four
or five questions which have been asked a number of witnesses here,,
and in order to give Mr. Lattimore an opportunity to make his denial
completely categorically, I would like to ask those questions :
Mr. Lattimore, are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party of the United States or a member of the Communist
Party of any other country?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Have you ever been asked or iiiAnted or urged to
join the Communist Party of any country?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever a part of any Communist organiza-
tion, apparatus, or network?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever under Communist discipline?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you ever agTee to accept Communist discipline?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Tliank you.
Senator O'Conor. Now, proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. One of the most shocking things that has happened
in the proceedings is that not one of the witnesses against me has ever
been asked in examination or cross-examination a question that would
test his motives or his reliability. Most shocking in this respect
has been the suppression or at least the bland ignoring of evidence
2948 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
already of record. The counsel of this subcommittee, Mr. Morris,
was the counsel of the Republican minority of the Senate Subcommit-
tee on Foreign Relations — the Tydings committee — and therefore had
intimate knowledge of this record evidence. It has also been widely
reported in the press.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, if I might interrupt the witness at
that point, I would like to ask this :
Are you intending to charge Mr. Morris with willful suppression
of e^ddence?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't profess to know the inside of Mr. Morris'
mind.
Senator O'Conor. That was not the question. You were asked
what was in your mind.
Mr. Lattimore. What is in my mind is that Mr. Morris had inti-
mate kno^vledge of this record evidence, and tliat I think it is a shock-
ing thing that in the proceedings before this committee no mention
has been made of that fact.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Have you carefully phrased your language for the
purpose of conveying implications which you do not desire flatly to
make, of implying charges that you don't care to state?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, that is one of those hair-splitting
legalistic questions to which I referred, and I do not want to give a
hair-splitting answer. I have tried to make my language clear and
firm. I have tried not to imply that I know things which I do not
know.
Senator Ferguson. I want to refer the witness to page 2519 of the
State Depaitment Employee Loyalty Investigation — I think that it
might better be known as the Tyding-s' investigation — under Senate
Resolution 231, in going into the question of whether or not they went
thoroughly into IPR, and yesterday it was brought out that they
did not have the files of the IPR. Senator Tydings says this :
There isn't anything, Mr. Morris, that isn't pertinent, and we can keep on
asking for things, and tliere is no donbt in the world, that would be a good thing
to get, and you could ask for 5,000 different things ; but we are pretty far away
from loyalty in the State Department when we get out in the Institute of Pacific
Relations with our little force. We just haven't got it.
Does that not indicate that Senator Tydings was not going into the
question of the Institute of Pacific Relations' and its relation to the
State Department ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator Ferguson, I was very clearly, in my state-
ment, referring not to things that the Tydings committee might have
gone into. I had no more control over the proceedings of the Tydings
committee than I have over the proceedings of this committee, and I
was referring specifical ly to matters that are of record in the Tydings
hearings.
Senator Ferguson. You see, I am much more interested in the whole
procedure of the investigation of penetration in the Institute of
Pacific Relations, and I am not directly interested in the individuals
that may come up from time to time in that investigation, only as it
relates to the broad question of penetration into the Institute of Pacific
Relations, plus the other question of the Institute of Pacific Relations'
relations to the State Department and making of foreign policy. So
I feel that the committee has a much broader field, and a more im-
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2949
portant question than even the Tydings committee had, of individuals
and their loyahy.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator Ferguson, the next passage in my state-
ment refers to a witness who appeared before the Tydings subcom-
mittee, and has also appeared before this subcommittee. It illustrates
exactly what I meant to say.
Mr. Sotjr'\\t:ne. Before the witness goes to that, if the Chair will
permit, I would like to get back to this question of the charge against
Mr. Morris. The witness did not answer the question as to whether
the language here was intentionally put together for the purpose of
implying a charge that he does not want to make. If that is not the
case, it should be very easy to say, "No, I did not."
Mr, Lattimore. I think that I answered that question, Mr. Sour-
wine, and I said that my language was carefully chosen not to imply
things that I do not know ; and I do not know
Mr. SonRWiNE. That is not an answer to the question.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know whether INIr. Morris acted in bad
faith or not. That is a matter for his conscience.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you have an anmius against Mr. Morris, Mr.
Lattimore ?
Mr. Latttmore. No ; I have no animus against Mr. Morris. I am
merely defending myself.
Mr.' SouR'uaNE. Do you have any feeling against him ?
Mr. Lattimore. How do you mean ''any feeling" ?
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you dislike him?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know him.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you dislike him ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know him.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you have any feeling of enmity or irritation
against him?
Mr. Lattimore. I have a feeling of outrage at the way in which
the evidence before this subcommittee has been stacked, in which he
took a material part.
Mr. Souewine. That is what you are expressing here, is that right ?
]\Ir. Lattimore. I am expressing the fact here that —
most shocking in this respect has been the suppression, or at least the bland
ignoring, of evidence already of record. The counsel of this subcommittee, Mr.
Morris, was the counsel of the Republican minority of the Senate Subcommittee
on Foreign Relations — the Tydings committee — and therefore had intimate
knowledge of this record evidence.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You have gone back to read the statement again,
haven't you ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is quite right.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Are you going to insist throughout this hearing on
saying nothing outside of the langiiage that you have said has been
carefully phrased over months, in this statement ?
Mr. Lattemore. I am endeavoring. Mr. Sourwine. as I said before,
not to confuse issues by having words put into my mouth in tlie an-
swering of questions, thus obscuring what I have clearly and cate-
gorically said of my own volition.
Mr. SouRwixE. Do you realize this paragraph you have just con-
cluded reading will, to any ordinary person who reads it once for
the first time, convey the impression that you are charging Mr. Morris
with deliberate suppression of evidence ?
2950 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Soiirwine, I am referring here to the proceed-
ings of this subcommittee
Mr. SouRwiNE. I asked you if you were aware
Mr. Lattimore. Of which Mr. Morris is only a part.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Are you aware that the original reading of this
by almost anj^one will convey the impression that you are charging
Mr. Morris with the deliberate suppression of evidence ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am not aware, Mr. Sourwine, of your authority
to state how the ordinary citizen would react. You are an interested
party.
Mr. Sourwine. I asked you if you were aware of that fact. You
are, as you have stated, a man of education, a man who is a university
professor ; and now, are you aware that the average reader will get —
or do you have an opinion as to what impression the average reader
will get from this ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have an opinion of the impression I intended to
■convey.
Mr. Sourwine. Good. Now, what did you intend to convey?
Mr. Lattimore. I intended to convey that "most shocking in this
respect has been the suppression or at least the bland ignoring of
evidence already of record."
Mr. Sourwine. In other words, you intended to convey — and then
you state exactly the language which is in here.
Mr. Lattimore, That is right, and I hope the impression was con-
veyed.
Senator SMmi. Professor Lattimore, you say first that there has
been the suppression. Well, now, are you certain that you meant to
convey the impression that you spoke with certainty that there had been
suppression of evidence ?
Mr. Lattimore. If I had meant that, Senator Smith, I should have
said so. That is wliy I wrote, "suppression or at least the bland
ignoring."
Senator Smith. So that when you said "suppression," you did not
really mean "suppression," that you had any evidence of suppression ;
but you are making the statement of either suppression or blancl
ignoring?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator Smith, the evidence that I have is that the
great majority of the allegations that have been made against me
before this subcommittee were previously made before the Tydings
committee and thoroughly dealt with there, and that this connection
has never been referred to in the proceedings before this subcommittee ;
that Mr. Morris was one of the counsel of that committee, and one
of the counsel of this committee; that the absence of connection in
the two proceedings indicates either suppression or bland ignoring.
Senator Smith. Well, now, then that is your answer to what you
meant when you charge this committee, or at least Mr. Morris, with
suppression of evidence; that is all the answer you want to give to
that, is it?
Mr. Lattimore. That is all of the answer I want to give.
Senator Smith. Do you think that that is any answer at all when
you charge a man with suppressing evidence, or do you think that you
have answered that?
Mr. Lattimore. I am referring to the fact. Senator, that evidence
has been omitted before this subcommittee.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2951
Senator Smith. Was anybody attempting to keep you from offering
any evidence you wanted, if it has been omitted?
Mr. Lattimore. After 8 months, I have finally been allowed to
appear here and read a few paragraphs of what I want to say.
Mr. SoTjRwiNE. In the paragraphs you have already read, have you
■offered any evidence ?
Senator O'Conor. Just hold that.
Have you concluded ?
Senator Jenner. The witness has stated this matter has been gone
into thoroughly before the Tydings committee. I think that the
reading of Senator Ferguson from the Tydings committee shows that
'they did not have the staff and they did not go into this fully. I be-
lieve my recollection is probably correct that this investigation pri-
marily is with IPR, and to show its relationship with the State De-
partment and the influence it might have had upon the State Depart-
ment. He says this matter was gone into thoroughly before the
Tydings committee. The files and the records of the IPR were not
*ven available. As a result, w£ found them some place up here in a
barn, stored away, and that is the base of this investigation. So on
that basis, how could Mr. jSIorris be fully acquainted with all of this,
and how could it have been thoroughly gone into in the Tydings hear-
ings when it was not even available? How could it have been sup-
pressed? I want to ask the witness, on the basis of that fact, how
it could have been suppressed ? How could it have been thoroughly
gone into ?
Senator O'Conor. Do you understand the question ? The question
is addressed as to how you could contend that that evidence, which
"was not then available to the Tydings committee, was in fact sup-
pressed ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, the Tydings committee, I think, investi-
gated me very thoroughly, and they stated in their conclusions :
Having found on the evidence before us that Mr. Lattimore is not an employee
of our State Department, that he is not tlie architect of our far eastern policy,
and that he is not a spy, our cousidei'ation of him should be concluded, since to
do otherwise would place us in the anomalous position of passing judgment on
the ideological disposition of a private citizen. We are constrained, however,
to make some observations relative to the case in its entirety, not only as a
matter of elementary fairness to Mr. Lattimore, who traveled half way around
the world to answer the charges against him, but the scholars and writers
throughout the country and the American public generally. Owen Lattimore
is a writer and a scholar who has been charged with a record of procommunism
going back many years. There is no legal evidence before us whatever to support
this charge, and the weight of all other information indicates that it is not true.
We find absolutely no evidence to indicate that his writings and other expressions
have been anything but honest opinions and convictions of Owen Lattimore.
Similar opinions and convictions vis-S-vis the Far East are entertained by many
Americans about whom no conceivable suggestion of Communist proclivities
could be entertained. We do not find that Mr. Lattimore's writings follow the
Communist or any other line, save as his very consistent position on the Far
East may be called the Lattimore line.
Senator Jexner. That is an opinion of a committee without the
evidence that this committee has had before it. The Tydings com-
mittee did not have this evidence before it, and that is an opinion
they reached on the evidence before their committee. But since that
committee has concluded its hearings, the files and the records of the
IPR have been disclosed, and we have obtained them in a barn up
here in Connecticut or some place. Now, this hearing is based upon
2952 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
a different set of facts, and so how could you say that the counsel has
suppressed evidence that was never before the Tydings committee in
the first place, and how could you say that the Tydings committee
thorough!}^ went into this when they did not?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, the evidence that has been used against
me before this subcommittee comes only in very small part from the
files of the Institute of Pacific Relations, illegally taken by this sub-
committee
Senator Smith. Wait a minute. Did you say "illegally"?
Senator O'Conor. Just a second. I do think Mr. Lattimore ought
to be allowed to complete his sentence.
Senator Smith. I did not understand whether he said "legally" or
"illegally."
Mr. Lattimore, Illegally.
Senator O'Conor. Proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. The main evidence that has been used against me
is a regurgitation, with an additional birth now and then, of the stuff
that was put up before the Tydings subcommittee and dealt with
there.
Senator Ferguson. Would you answer, now, why you used the
phrase that the evidence was "obtained illegally"?
Mr. Lattimore. I am basing that on the statement of, as I recall,
Mr. Holland, in his appearance befoi'e this subcommittee.
Senator Ferguson. Are you accustomed just to repeat a statement
on the legality or illegality of a matter because one particular wit-
ness says
Mr. Lattimore. I believe Mr. Holland, when he was questioned
about that, replied that he was making a statement on advice of
counsel.
Senator Ferguson. Why, Mr. Lattimore, are you defending the
Institute of Pacific Relations? I can see a reason tliat you miglit be
greatly upset on your own problems, but why do you bring up this
question now of defense on the legality or illegality of this committee
getting records of the Institute of Pacific Relations ?
Mr.LATTiMORE. Senator, I am dealing with the Institute of Pacific
Relations only as it is being used in this attempt to make me out to be
wliat I am not and never have been.
Senator Ferguson. Then you think if the evidence does prove that
the Institute of Pacific Relations was penetrated by Communists, that
that casts a reflection upon you, and therefore you are making these
statements today, in your own defense ?
Mr. Lattimore. Would you repeat that question ?
Senator O'Conor. We will have it read.
You may consult counsel.
(Mr. Lattimore conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Ferguson. You have raised the question of legality of this
conunittee obtaining evidence, and you say that this committee ob-
tained "illegally," and you are accusing this committee of illegally
obtaining evidence and using tliat evidence that it illegally obtained.
Now, that evidence is only evidence from the IPR and not from you.
I am asking you whether or not it is your contention that if the IPR
is found to luive been penetrated by Communists, that that will cast a
reflection on you, and that is the reason that j^ou are raising this ques-
tion of legality or illegality ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2953
Mr. Lattimore. xVren't you raising two questions, Senator Fer-
guson ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes. You can answer them, and I made an
explanation.
Mr. Lattimore. One question is about the legality of obtaining the
files, and the other question is about the validity of any evidence con-
tained in the files.
Senator Ferguson. I am talking about your defense. You brought
up the question, indicating in this record that this committee illegally
obtained evidence, Mr. Lattimore ; and I asked you the question where
you got that opinion, and you said from Mr. Holland's statement to
this committee.
Mr. Lait'Imore. That is right.
Senator Ferguson. And then I went on to ask the question about
whether or not you took other people's opinion on these questions of
legality or not, and repeated them; and then I came back to your
defense of the IPR.
Mr. Lattimore. Well, it is my belief, Senator, throughout my con-
nection with the IPR, that it was never controlled by Connnunists.
Senator Ferguson. Was it ever penetrated?
Mr. Lattimore. A number of people who have refused to answer
whether they were Communists or not, and therefore presumptively
may be or may have been Connnunists, worked in the IPR. That is a
far cry from saying that they controlled or influenced either the IPR
or me.
Senator Ferguson. I asked you the question : Was the IPR pene-
trated? And is there any evidence, in your opinion, in this record
that the IPR was penetrated by Communists?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, "penetration" is your word, and may I
ask you what you mean by it ?
Senator Ferguson. Influenced ; let us use that word now.
Mr. Lattimore. Because the IPR may have been penetrated in the
sense that Communists had jobs in the IPR. I have yet to see evidence
that Communists controlled the IPR.
Senator Ferguson. I think that you have made the statement that,
in your opinion, Field, who was connected with the IPR, is a
Communist.
Mr. Lattimore. That is certainly my impression.
Senator Ferguson. And you say that he became a Communist, I
think, in the 1940's, did you use that ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think that I used that. Somebody else used
it and I am quite willing to accept it. I did say the forties.
Senator Ferguson. In 1940. Do you think that the position that
Mr. Field held in the IPR, as a Communist, on your own statement
that he was a Communist, had any influence on the IPR?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, the record is that everything published
by the IPR was always circulated to many readers of diverse quali-
fications of knowledge and diverse opinions before being published.
I think that that is by far the strongest safeguard that any private
institution can have on its output not being biased by the propaganda
of the Communists or anybody else.
Senator Ferguson. I did not ask you about that.
Mr. Lattimore. And, therefore, I believe that it is not true that
Field, or any other Communist, controlled the IPR or its output.
2954 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Ferguson. Now, you have used the word "controlled," and
I have asked for the word "influence." You have taken the defense
again that they had a mechanism to avoid being controlled, and I am
not talking about whether they tried to avoid or not.
Mr. Lattimorp:. I will accept your word. Senator.
Senator Ferguson. Influence?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes; influence. I do not believe that the work of
the IPB, was influenced in a Communist direction or in the service of
Comnumist propaganda by Field or anyone else.
Senator Ferguson. Well, then, the difficulty, I think, between you
and me on this problem is that you take for granted that Communists
do not have the capacity and the ability to penetrate and influence,
in a devious way even, against the great efl^ort of honest people.
My experience on this committee, and I must tell you, Mr. Lattimore,
is such that the devious activities of Communists, and the way they
work and manipulate and the way they have worked and manipulated
all over the world, leads me to believe that you cannot set up in any
organization that has them in responsible positions any mechanism to
keep out their activities and their influence, and I think the only way
that you can do it is not to have them in.
Now, you may disagree. Do you disagree on that ?
Mr. LAi^riMORE. On that all I can say is that I am not an expert
on Communists or communism. I do have some experience in re-
search woi'k and editing and some experience of putting out a good
product that is free of propaganda. I Avill go no further than to say
that tlie IPR was run in such a manner that it had the maximum
safeguards that a private institution can have in protecting itself
against these dangers. Wliether it was absolutely successful in every
sentence, half-sentence, and comma is a matter on which opinions
might well differ.
Senator Ferguson. Do you think, Mr. Lattimore, that we could
trust a Communist in a responsible position in IPR; that he would
not try and actually influence for communism ? What is your opinion
on that?
Mr. Lattimore. My opinion is that I would not knowingly employ
any Communist in the IPR. or a similar organization. To that I can
only add, as I have said in my statement, that in the 1930's, no private
organization was running a private FBI to sift and check its personnel,
and that our sole standard was not to promote any propaganda, but to-
promote free presentation of information and discussion of that in-
formation.
Senator Ferguson. Do you think, Mr. Lattimore, today — let us look
at it as of today — that any Communist can fairly present the facts and'
not actually use facts as propaganda to further communism?
Mr. Latti3iore. Senator, I have just stated that I would not myself
knowingly employ a Communist, and it is for those reasons that I
wouldn't.
Senator Ferguson. That answers my question ; you and I agree on
that.
Senator O'Conor. Would you resume, then, Mr. Lattimore? One
suggestion occurs to me, which I would like to see if counsel and all
agree on : That it appears that from this point up until page 9, there is
one segment of the matter that possibly could be given, to the best in--
INSTITUTE or PACIFIC RELATIONS 2955
terests of all, uninterruptedly ; and so, if that is given as a whole, it
might admit, then, of better discussion and consideration.
Mr. FoRTAS. That is splendid. Senator.
Senator O'Conor. For the purpose of expedition, I offer that as a
suggestion, that you should proceed, and that would be a very proper
way in which to proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. I will cite just one example, a ratlier striking one —
that of Louis F. Buclenz.
The proceedings of the Tydings committee show that Budenz's ac-
cusations of me before that subcommittee were a complete fabrication
concocted for the specific purpose of his appearance tliere. They show
(1) that until he was recruited to tell his fantastic yarn, Budenz never
mentioned me to the FBI despite liundreds of hours of testimony
(transcript, p. 1116) ; (2) that in 1949 when he wrote an article for
Collier's, denouncing many persons for their participation in the
Chinese situation, Budenz made no mention of me (transcript, p.
1096) ; (3) that when he published a book in 1950 dealing with the
same subject, he made no reference to me in his manuscript, inserting
a passing mention only after I was publicly attacked by Senator
McCarthy (transcript, p. 1115). All of this material was available to
your committee, and your counsel, Mr. Robert Morris, was thorouglily
familiar with it, but not one syllable of it was entered in your record
nor was Mr. Budenz asked a single question concerning it.
In connection with this man Budenz, Senators, I call your attention
to the fact that the personal history and character of Louis Budenz
was thoroughl}' gone into in the hearings before the Tydings commit-
tee in 1950.
This man, when he became a functionary of the Communist Party,
was neither a dupe nor a visionary. He was a hard-bitten man of 44,
and his own sworn testimony, contained in the official transcript of the
deportation proceedings entitled "In the Matter of Desideriu Ham-
mer, Alias John Santos, Respondent in Deportation Proceedings File
No. A-6002664" shows that he was already, before becoming a Com-
munist, a man of immoral life.
I exposed him as a liar before the Tydings committee. Since then
a distinguished newspaperman, Mr. Joseph Alsop, has publicly chal-
lenged him as a perjurer, and has demanded of this committee that the
record of Budenz' testimony be sent over to the Department of Justice
for examination to see whether he should be prosecuted for perjury.
Before the Tydings committee, Budenz was an uneasy and evasive
liar who weaseled and retreated when his credibility was questioned,
but before this committee every question that was addressed to him was
an invitation to make the most imaginative and inventive use of what
Mr. Joseph Alsop has aptly called "the built-in pick-up" in his mem-
ory. Thus admonished, drilled, and exhorted to take heart and fear
not, he proceeded to bring up his old, disproved charges with a new
assurance and with new embroideries and embellishments.
In the Tydings hearings, Budenz finally said, "I have never seen any
vestige of his [Lattimore's] Communist Party membership." Sena-
tor Lodge attempted to get Budenz to state "a specific instance when
an order or an instruction was given [to Lattimore] and carried out"
(p. 1134). After hesitating and weaseling, Budenz said: "Well, the
order to represent the Chinese Communists as agrarian reformers
2956 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
was certainly carried out." Then, when Senator Lodge asked, "Is
that the most concrete and specific illustration there is ?" Budenz then
said, "That is the most concrete, yes, sir" (p. 1134).
Now, it was clearly established in the Tydings committee hearings
that in fact I had never called the Chinese Communists "agrarian
reformers," nor had Pacific Affairs carried articles calling them agra-
rian reformers, with the si"ngle exception of an article by a Chinese
Communist, which was clearly labeled as such, and was presented as
an example of what the Chinese Connnunists were saying. It was thus
clearl}^ brought out that Budenz was not only lying when he said that
I "carried out an order" but lying in the dark and by guesswork.
Before the Tydings committee, Budenz backed away when asked to
show whether he really knew anything about my writings or opinions.
Senator Green summed it up :
Then, you say you have never seen him, never talked with him, never liad any
communication with liim, you have read none of his books to speak of, none of
liis articles to speak of.
Now, it is characteristic of this man and of this dark world of
intrigue, that your counsel, Mr. Morris, carefully refrained in the
hearings before you from asking Budenz whether he had read my
writings. If he had, Budenz would have had the choice of plain, not
fancy, perjury or confessing that he had no basis for his charges.
Instead, Mr. Morris and Budenz sought to achieve just as good a gen-
eral effect. Mr. Morris obligingly asked "Subsequent to that time, did
you follow the publication Pacific Affairs?" and Budenz obligingly
replied, "Yes, although, of course, today that is not all fresh in my
memory."
Before the Tydings committee it was brought out that when Bu-
denz was in conference with an editor of Collier's magazine and not
protected by congressional immunity, he stated (p. 1096) that he was
not saying I "acted as a Communist agent in any way." Before this
subcommittee, however, knowing he would be protected, he lied glibly
and obligingly (p. 1016).
Senator Ferguson. I think I will ask a question there. Do you
think that Mr. Budenz is protected from perjury as far as the Depart-
ment of Justice is concerned for his statement before this committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is a legal question. I do not know what
the answer is.
Senator Smith. You made the statement.
Senator Ferguson. You have made the statement.
Mr. FoRTAs. May he confer with counsel ?
Senator O'Conor. Yes.
Senator Ferguson. He has made that statement.
Mr. Lattimore. He is protected from libel action by me, I under-
stand.
Senator Ferguson. Yes; but not from perjury. Mr. Lattimore, as
I understand it, you feel that this whole question of perjury, as far
as you are concerned and as far as Mr. Budenz is concerned, ought
to be referred to the Justice Department. Your counsel has just said
that they can take it up on reference.
There is not any doubt that you accuse Budenz of perjury, is there?
Mr. Latitmore. Senator, I have been reminded several times that
this committee makes its own procedure. If this committee, in its
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2957
discretion, wants to refer my case to the Justice Department they are,
of course, free to do so. My opinion is the case of Budenz should
be referred to the Justice Department.
Senator Ferguson. I understand. Now, of course, if they are going
to convict Mr. Budenz of perjury as to what he said to you, then
Mr. Lattimore. He didn't say anything.
Senator Ferguson. No; about you in this committee. The only
way that it could be referred would be to refer to your statements
and his statements, so that the Justice Department
Mr. Lattimore. And Mr. Alsop's, and Mr. Vincent's statements,
and Mr. Wallace's statements.
Senator Ferguson. Yes ; refer them all to the Department of Jus-
tice. Is that correct?
Mr. Lattimore. That is in your discretion, Senator.
Senator Ferguson. From what you are saying here, accusing Bu-
denz of absolute perjury, do I understand that you do accuse him of
perjury ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am not a lawyer.
Senator Ferguson. I am trying to get some information. If you
do, then I would recommend to this committee that they do refer this
matter.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am not aware of the precise legal dis-
tinctions here between a liar, a liar under oath, and a perjurer. You
are a lawyer. I will just ask you which of those terms is the strong-
est ? Tell me the strongest one and that is the one that I want to use.
Senator Ferguson. Perjury implies that he willfully testified false-
ly, knowingly.
Mr. Lattimore. Is that the strongest term ?
Senator Ferguson. I think that is the strongest.
Mr. Lattimore. O. K., that is my term. He is a perjurer.
Senator Ferguson. Then if you say that now, then I say that I will
recommend to this committee that the matter be referred to the De-
partment of Justice.
Senator Watkins. I would like to ask one thing.
Senator O'Conor. Senator Watkins, if you would not mind, we
would like for him to complete this segment.
Senator Watkins. It is on the very same thing. I noticed that he
said, before the Tydings committee, it was brought out that when
Budenz was in conference with an editor of Collier's magazine and
not protected by congressional immunitj' — as a matter of fact, he was
protected by congressional immunity when he was before the Tydings
committee, was he not, the same as he would be here?
Mr. Lattimore. I would have to ask a legal question on that.
Senator Watkins. You are giving a legal opinion.
Mr. Lattimore. The conference that he had with Collier's is out-
side of the Congress.
Senator Watkins. The testimony of Budenz was when Budenz was
before the committee, at the same time.
Mr. Lattimore. The point I am making is simply that when Budenz
was out of the shelter of the Congress and was asked a straight ques-
tion by somebody, he refused to lie.
Senator O'Conor. I interpreted your statement to mean that you
are referring only to the Collier's conference.
88348— 52— pt. 9 5
2958 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I am referring only to the Collier's conference.
Senator O'Conor. That is in indicating that that was not protected
by the immunity ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Watkins. As I get it from the sentence there, it seems
rather vague and indefinite.
Before the Tydings committee it was brought out —
Was it brought out from Budenz or was it brought out from some-
body else ?
Mr. Lattimore. I will continue with the statement.
Morris. Was Lattimore discussed as a Communist?
Budenz. Instructions were given to him as a member of the Communist cell ;
yes, sir.
I recall to your minds that Mr. Morris was present throughout the
Tdyings committee hearings and knew that Budenz had backed away
from saying that I had acted as "a Communist agent in any way."
Yet this same Mr. Morris is the one who invited Budenz, from the
borrowed immunity of his presence before this subcommittee, to testi-
fy that I received instructions as a member of a Communist cell. If
the precise phrases used mean anything different, it is too subtle for
me. To my non-Communist mind, Budenz said one thing to Collier's,
and the opjjosite here.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Sour wine, you indicated you had some ques-
tions.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, I have several questions over that
matter that has just been traversed.
Senator Ferguson. I just wanted to say, Mr. Lattimore, you realize,
in referring this matter of Budenz to the Justice Department, they
would then have to determine who committed the perjury. Is that
not correct ?
Mr. Lattimore. You mean whether Budenz
Senator Ferguson. Yes, in bringing a charge.
Mr. Lattimore. I imagine Budenz will be referred to the Justice
Department. It would be a question of whether Budenz committed
perjury.
Senator Ferguson. But then you would not want your testimony
referred ?
Mr. Lattimore. You mean that the price of accusing anybody of
perjui-y is to be accused of perjury yourself?
Senator Ferguson. One of the statements has to be false. That is
correct. Either you are correct or Budenz is correct. That is, to de-
termine whether Budenz is guilty of perjury.
Mr. Lattimore. My belief that Budenz is a perjurer could be
proved or disproved.
Senator Smith. ^^Hiat he means, Mr. Lattimore, as I understand
that which Senator Ferguson is driving at, is that you and Mr. Budenz
have made diametrically opposed statements. That is true, is it not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Senator Smith. Statements of fact, and both of you have made
them under oath. That is true, is it not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Senator Smith. Now then, if one is right the other is wrong. The
one that is wrong is the one that has committed perjury. That is
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2959
what Senator Ferguson is getting at. There would have to be an
inquiry by the Department'as to whether you or Mr. Budenz had been
the one to commit perjury.
Senator Watkins. And if they determined that you are the one
who told the untruth, then you would be prosecuted for perjury.
That is what they should do.
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, I know that I am not a liar of any
kind. I believe that the evidence shows that Budenz is a perjurer.
I should like to see the indications of Mr. Budenz's perjury followed
up, and lead where they may.
Senator Watkins. 1 think that it proper. It should be referred, of
course.
Senator Ferguson. These two gentlemen cannot both be right. He
says that they are opposite.
Mr. SouRwiNE. May I ask the indulgence of the committee to ask
a few questions over the several pages which the witness has just fin-
ished reading ?
Senator O'Conor. Will you proceed please, Mr. Sourwine?
Mr. Sourwine. On page 4, Mr. Lattimore, under the sub point that
you have numbered 3, you refer to a manuscript presumably the manu-
script of a book published by Mr. Budenz in 1950. Have you ever seen
that manuscript ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have never seen the manuscript myself. The
question was brought up in the hearings before the Tydings subcom-
mittee. I would recommend that they be reviewed by this subcom-
mittee.
Mr. Sourwine. The page references which you give here, are they
to the printed hearings or to the typed and mimeographed transcript?
Mr. Lattimore. They are to the typed and mimeographed tran-
script.
Mr, Sourwine. In the paragraph at the bottom of page
Senator Smith. One moment, please. Right there. Professor Latti-
more, you said "he made no reference to me in his manuscript."
If you did not see and had not seen the manuscript, how could you
make that statement under oath yourself ?
JNIr. Lattimore. Senator, I believe that if the committee will in-
vestigate that transcript, which has not apparently been done yet,
it will be found that I made that statement on the admission of
Budenz,
Senator Smith. I never asked you that. You said "in his manu-
script."
Mr, Lattimore. Yes,
Senator Smith. You said "he made no reference to me in his manu-
script." You just said a moment ago, as I understood it, that you had
not seen the manuscript.
Mr. Lattimore. This is the result of questioning of Mr. Budenz.
Senator Smith. Do you still understand you are testifying under
oath ?
Mr, Lattimore, Yes, sir.
Senator Smith. Then how can you testify under oath that he made
no reference to you in the manuscript if you had not seen the manu-
script? I just want to test the ability of you to make statements of
that sort.
2960 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore (reading) :
Mr. MoBGAN. Now going back, Mr. Budenz ■
Senator Smith. What are you reading from ?
Mr. Lattimore. The transcript of the Tydings subcommittee.
Senator Smith. That is something that was beyond your knowl-
edge was it not?
Mr. Lattimore. I was there, Senator.
Senator Smith. I asked you the simple question how could you
swear that he made no references in the manuscript after you said
you had not seen the manuscript ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I have here a statement that "The proceed-
ings of the Tydings committee show — ". And it repeats "they
show — ." Now everything that follows below there is a reference to
what the proceedings of the Tydings committee shows. It is not a
statement of my own knowledge.
Senator Smith. You said he made no reference "to me in his manu-
script."
Mr. Lattimore. I said that comes, Senator, without a full stop
under the sentence beginning "They show — — ."
Senator Smith. That is so far as you are concerned, and that is
,not sworn testimony so far as you are concerned ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is sworn testimony and that is in the Tydings
committee.
Senator Smith. Is that a statement of sworn testimony of fact
by you ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, you are getting me confused.
Senator Smith. I do not mean to confuse you. I asked you a simple
question. When you put something in the statement here, and after
yon had already testified you had not seen it, the manuscript, that
is a simple question.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am testifying that I did not see the manu-
script, and that I am basing my statement on sworn testimony before
the Tydings committee.
Senator Smith. But not your sworn testimony, not your sworn
statement ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I didn't.
Senator Smith. All right. That is what I was getting at.
Senator O'Conor. All right, gentlemen.
Mr. SouRwiNE. May I continue, Mr. Chairman ?
Senator O'Conor. Yes, Mr. Sourwine, will you continue, please.
Mr. Sourwine. The full paragraph at the bottom of the page
Mr. Lattimore. May I complete that reference first ?
Senator O'Conor. Go ahead.
Mr. Lattimore. By introducing what the testimony was before the
Tydings committee, may I complete it ?
Mr. Sourwine. You have given your page reference, Mr. Lattimore,
to the testimony you were referring to. We are going to recess here
at half past 12. That has been stated. May counsel have permission
to traverse what you have already read as to your statement?
Mr. FoRTAS. I believe the chairman ruled on that.
Senator O'Conor. It is permissible to make reference to the tran-
script of the other proceedings upon which the witness said he relied,
and you can do that. You have done it by way of page reference now^
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2961
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, my feeling is that reference by page num-
ber was adequate in the first instance, but is not adequate since the
questioning by Senator Smith; that Senator Smith's ehiboration by
questioning entitles me to read the more detailed record myself.
Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman, there is another problem involved
there, there is a problem of cross-examination by us of the men who
made the statements in that testimony, and therefore that ought not to
go into this record except by reference. We do not want to adopt that
as truthful testimony because we do not know.
Senator O'Conor. I think it is a very simple issue. What portion
of that, Mr. Lattimore, do you refer to ?
Mr. Lattimore. My reference in my statement is to page 1110. The
fuller reference would be page 1114, beginning with Mr. Morgan's
questioning of Budenz about his book, and the course of publication,
and ending with the answer to a question, by Budenz, near the top
of 1115.
Mr. SouRWiisrE. May that be inserted ?
Senator O'Conor. That will be inserted in full.
(The material referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 460" and is as
follows :)
State Department Emplotee Loyalty Investigation Hearings Before a Sub-
committee OF THE Committee on Foreign Relations, United States Senate,
Eighty-first Congress
[Pt. 1, pp. 518-519]
Mr. Morgan. Now, going back, Mr. Budenz, to a further matter, I believe you
have presently with publishers a book; is that correct?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Morgan. What is the title of the book?
Mr. Budenz. Men Without Faces.
Mr. Morgan. And who publishes it?
Mr. Budenz. Harper & Bros.
Mr. Morgan. What theme have you developed in this book?
Mr. Budenz. Well, the name suggests the theme. The name is not arbitrary.
It is because of the fact that we were forbidden to photograph most of the
leaders of the Communist Party — that is, Biddleman, Tractenberg, or the secret
heads of the Communist Party — we had a rule we were forbidden to photograph
them. That is why the name of the book, because it indicates the Soviet fifth
column in this country. The book exposes the Soviet fifth column in this country.
I know, because I am in it.
Mr. Morgan. Do you develop in this book this picture which you are giving
us todfty, this picture about the 1937 and the 1943 and the 1944 incidents?
Mr. Budenz. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Morgan. Do you refer to Mr. Lattimore in this book?
Mr. Budenz. No, sir ; I did not, and there is a specific reason, because if I were
to refer to Mr. Lattimore I would be in the same peculiar situation I was in
in the Wallace situation. In fact, the Wallace situation w^as the cause of my
not putting Mr. Lattimore in this book. The only time that I put Mr. Lattimore
in the book was to identify Mr. John S. Service.
Mr. Morgan. What was that?
Mr. Budenz. Mr. John S. Service. Service. And because I made a slight error
of fact about Mr. Service, saying that he had advised Mr. Wallace, I corrected
that to say "advised Mr. Wallace in the Government with Owen J. Lattimore."
That is being made because of the error. Now, the thing
Senator Smith. That will not be admitted in.
Senator Ferguson. No, that will just be inserted into the record.
Mr. SouRwiNE. This paragraph at the bottom of page 4, sir, where
you say that the personal history and character of Louis Budenz was
thoroughly gone into in the hearings before the Tydings committee in
2962 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS ■
1950, by whom was that gone into ? "Who testified with regard to the
personal history and character of Louis Budenz? Not in addition
to anything, but who testified in regard to it ?
Mr. Lattimore. There was some testimony by Budenz in examina-
tion, I believe, and then there was also the official transcript of the
deportation proceedings.
Mr. SouEwiNE. You are talking about the Santos transcript that
you mentioned at the top of the next page, that is what you are
referring to when you say it was thoroughly gone into ?
Mr. Lattimore. Partly that and partly, I believe, the interrogation.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Of Mr. Budenz himself ?
Mr. Lattemore. Himself, yes. I haven't got that reference exactly
at the moment.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you have anything to do with offering that
Santos transcript?
Mr. Lattimore. That Santos transcript, Mr. Sourwine, was sub-
mitted to my counsel, Mr. Fortas, and I would prefer to have him
answer on that.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know where he got it?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know where he got it.
Mr. Sourwine, Did he ever tell you where he got it?
Mr. Lattimore. Did you ever tell me where you got it?
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, we are asking you.
Mr. Fortas. May he consult with counsel ?
Senator O'Conor. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. No, he didn't.
Mr. Sourwine. Was there any cross-examination ?
Mr. Fortas. I can make a statement as counsel, on this, if you want
me to.
Senator P^erguson. I think we ought to let the questioning go on and
find out what the witness knows first, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know whether there was any questioning
about that Santos transcript as such?
Mr. Lattimore. As I remember, it was handed up in a sealed en-
velope with the suggestion that the Tydings committeee should con-
sider it, and advising them to consult their discretion on putting it into
the record.
Mr. Sourwine. Was it printed as a part of the record of the Tydings
hearings ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't believe it was.
Senator Ferguson. Who handed it up, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. As I remember, sir — I can check with my counsel,
but my memory is that my counsel handed it to counsel of the com-
mittee.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Fortas handed it ?
Mr. Lattimore. To Mr. Morgan, I believe, or to the chairman of
the committee. You can ask him.
Senator Ferguson. Had you seen it before?
Mr. Lattimore. I had not seen it.
Senator Ferguson. You had not seen it before it was handed up in
a sealed envelope?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Ferguson. Have you ever seen it?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2963
Senator Ferguson. Then how do you make this statement in tliis
record if you have never seen this matter?
Mr. FoKTAS. Do you want a statement of counsel ?
Senator Fergusoist. No; I want to know how he makes this state-
ment.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Fortas, I think at this juncture it is proper
for the Senator to ask that.
Senator Ferguson. What is the page number that you are reading
from ?
Mr. Lattimore. From page No. 5.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Was it summarized, Mr. Lattimore, before the
Tydings committee ?
Senator Ferguson. You accused him of being an immoral person,
a man of immoral life, and you give a proceeding in a record that you
have never seen. Do you not indicate to this committee, when you
make that statement, that you did see it and you were testifying to
that as a fact, that that record did show it?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I can check with my counsel to see what
his memory of tliis is, but my recollection is that he handed this up
to the counsel or to the committee, and that I asked him what that w^as,
and he said sometliing about it is too filthy for you to need to read, or
something of that sort.
Senator Ferguson. But here you make a specific charge from a doc-
ument, and it now turns out that you had some information from your
counsel which would be hearsay, that this was too filthy for you to
read or to bother with, as your words go.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, this is hearsay. It can be checked very
easily. Get the documents and look at them.
Senator Ferguson. No; I am asking as to what you say to this
committee. You are asking this committee to believe this document.
You are reading it as testimony and you are past that point, and you
ask this committee to believe you when you said that that document
contained this information. Now it turns out that you never saw that
document.
Senator O'Conor. Let the record show that the witness consulted
with his counsel in the meantime. Proceed with your answer.
Mr. Lattimore. I have just consulted with my counsel and he re-
minded me of something that I had forgotten, that Senator Chavez
had made reference to this on the Senate floor.
Senator Ferguson. Are joix then quoting Senator Chavez?
Mr. Lattimore. I will be glad to add that reference to the testimony
in my statement.
Senator Ferguson. It still makes it hearsay, as far as you are con-
cerned.
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I don't know exactly what fine distinction
you are driving at. Senator. But I think the matter is easily settled.
Get a hold of the transcript.
Senator Smith. I think the point, Mr. Chairman, is that this witness
here has put in a statement, sworn to as sworn testimony, and now he
admits that he had never seen the document about which or from which
he was quoting or making statements.
If that is the way most of this statement of yours has been made up,
then I can see we are justified in thinking that this is jumbled as well
as the testimony in the rest of the proceedings has been jumbled, as
2964 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
you suggest. Wliy did you make that statement, Mr. Lattimore, if you
did not know, of your own knowledge, it was the truth ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, if you would like me to read it and make it
direct testimony — I understand it is a rather distasteful thing to read —
I will go through with it.
Senator Smith. I am not asking you that. I am not asking you
that, Mr. Lattimore. I am asking you why did you put in here a state-
ment that you are to introduce as sworn evidence when you had not
even read the statement to which you are referring?
Mr. Lattimore. Because the record of the Tydings committee shows
that it was submitted.
Senator Ferguson. But you do not know is in it yet, do you, of your
own knowledge ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not of my own knowledge.
Senator Smith. All right. Then you are swearing to something you
did not know. You made that statement here.
Mr. Lattimore. I know that Senator Chavez said that he was a man
of immoral life.
Senator Smith. Senator Chavez can speak for himself.
Mr. Lattimore. I will be glad to add him.
Senator Smith. You made a statement of fact there that you did not
have in your possession at the time you made it; is that right?
Mr. Lattimore. I made the statement that this document exists, and
that its contents are of a certain character, and I am perfectly pre-
pared to have my statement tested by a checking of the contents.
Senator Smith. And you say that it showed he was already, before
becoming a Communist, a man of immoral life?
Mr. Lattimore. That is my understanding.
Senator Smith. You made that statement without even reading the
document to which you refer.
Mr. Lattimore. I have made that statement, Senator, with reference
to a supporting document, which is a great deal more than has been
done in the case of some of the evidence offered against me before this
subcommittee.
Senator Smith. But you had not read the supporting documents?
Mr. Lattimore. I knew of the existence of the supporting docu-
ments.
Senator Smith, But you had not read it. Will you answer a simple
question ? You had not read it, had you ?
Mr. Lattimore. No. Senator, do not badger me like that.
Senator Smith. I am not Ijadgering you.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Lattimore, it was a question you could answer
"yes" or "no." Nobody is badgering you.
_ Mr. Lattimore. I have already answered, I have done it several
times, and he is badgering me to say it again.
Senator O'Conor. The answer is "No," that you did not read it
prior to making this statement.
Mr. Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, you say that Senator Chavez used
statements upon the Senate floor in relation to that document; is
that correct?
Mr. Lattimore. In relation to Budenz and this document was
among the references that he made.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2965
Senator Ferguson. Yes; now I will ask you the question as to
whether or not you know where Senator Chavez received this infor-
mation that he repeated on the floor, or that he stated on the floor ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no idea.
Senator Ferguson. Did you read his speech ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I read his speech.
Senator Ferguson. And you have not any idea where he received
the information?
Mr. Lattimore. I do not recall now, after 2 years, whether he stated
where he received it or not. I can just make reference to these
proceedings.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know whether or not he received it
from your counsel ?
Mr. Lattimore. To the best of my knowledge and belief, no.
Senator Ferguson. Had you talked to the Senator before he made
the statement?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Ferguson. Did you talk to him after ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Ferguson. Then you do not know where he received the
information ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Ferguson. And you are quoting this here, that Budenz
was of immoral life, without ever seeing the document or to know
actually of your own knowledge what was in it ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes • with very specific references to the document
making it easily identifiable and verifiable.
Senator Ferguson. Do you think that it is worse to accuse a man,
without personal knowledge, of immoral life than it is to accuse him
of being a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, I am referring to a specific docu-
ment which can easily be verified. That is not in the same class as
the Irind of hearsay evidence that has been offered against me.
Senator Ferguson. You think it is different ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think it is very different.
Mr. Sourwine. Is that document available to you, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. I do not know if I could get it by going to the
archives of the Tydings committee or not.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. \I!hairman, may we inquire of counsel with re-
gard to that document ?
Senator O'Conor. As a matter of fact, I think counsel volunteered
or desired to state how it was procured.
Mr. FoRTAS. I should like to make a statement. The rules of this
committee say, whatever that means, that counsel may not testify ; but
this is a statement of counsel, that I ask to be allowed to make on this
subject.
The procedure before the Tydings committee in which I represented
Mr. Lattimore included a provision to the effect that counsel for any
witness might hand to the committee counsel written questions and
supporting material. In the course of the hearings which were highly
publicized, as you will recall, concerning Mr. Lattimore before the
Tydings committee, a lawyer here in Washington telephoned me and
said that he had a transcript which would be of interest to me. I told
him that I should be very interested to receive it.
2966 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
The transcript came over. The transcript was the one referred to
on page 5 of Mr. Lattimore's statement here. I read the transcript.
The transcript was of such a nature and made reference in intimate
detail to a man's personal life, that man being Budenz. The character
of the transcript was such that I concluded that it had a bearing upon
Mr. Budenz's credibility as a witness. But it was also such that I con-
cluded that I did not want to have anything to do with making it
public.
I consulted with Mr. Lattimore about that. I do not recall whether
he read the transcript or not. I do remember, I am certain that I des-
cribed to him the contents of the transcript.
I then put the transcript in a sealed envelope and handed that tran-
script to Mr. Morgan, who was then counsel of the Tydings committee,
and I believe that^I — I haven't checked this, but either informally or
on the record the Tydings committee was advised that the transcript
that was in this sealed envelope, that its nature was such that I felt that
it should be examined by the committee — perhaps this was in Mr. Lat-
timore's statement, perhaps he said it — that it should be examined by
the committee privately and should not be automatically made a part of
the record. The reason for that, again, being that the transcript con-
tained matters relating to Mr. Budenz's private life which I found to
be quite distasteful, but also quite relevant to the issue of Mr. Budenz's
credibility, that being a legal judgment.
That is what happened, and I handed the transcript up and I don't
recall whether there was any further reference to it in the Tydings
committee proceeding.
Senator Ferguson. Did it become a part of the record ?
Senator O'Conor. Would you wait just a moment?
Mr. FoRTAs. If I am making a statement as counsel, I wish to finish.
Senator O'Conor. You will be permitted to. Go ahead. I think,
Senator Ferguson, he ought to be permitted to finish the statement.
Senator Ferguson. I would like to know, first, before we get the
statement, whether it became part of the record of the Tydings com-
mittee ?
Mr. FoRTAs. I assume so. Senator. 1 don't know. I haven't checked
the records.
Senator Ferguson. Did it ever appear in the press ?
Mr. FoRTAS. No. I was going on to the next part of the story.
Senator Smith. May I ask you. Did Mr. Budenz ever hear of it, or
was he ever faced with it ? That is to say, did he ever have a chance
to deny it, or what?
Mr. Fortas. Senator, I don't recall. I haven't checked the Tydings
committee records.
The next part of the story is that Senator Chavez made a speech
on the Senate floor attacking Mr. Budenz. Perhaps I should not
characterize the Senator's speech. But the Senator made a speech
on the Senate floor in which he made reference to Mr. Budenz, and
made reference to this transcript. I believe — I haven't checked it —
that he used the words that Mr. Lattimore has used in this statement.
I did not see Senator Chavez before that. Senator Chavez did not
obtain the transcript from my office. We did not have the transcript.
As a matter of fact, the transcript was never returned to us.
Now, Mr. Morris wrote an article for the Freeman Magazine — is
that the name of it?— in which he said that Mr. Lattimore must have
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2967
obtained this transcript from a — I don't have the article, and this is
not a precise quote — the effect of it wjis that Mr, Lattimore must have
obtained the transcript from a Communist lawyer.
Mr. Lattimore did not obtain the transcript at all. The transcript
came into my possession in the manner that I have described. It came
to me from a Washington lawyer; and if the committee is insistent
upon it. I will give the committee this lawyer's name, with his
permission.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Sourwine, had you asked that?
Mr. Sourwine. I had not asked who the lawyer was who offered
you and subsequently gave you this transcript.
Mr. FoRTxVS. With the permission of the lawyer concerned, I state
that tlie lawyer who gave me this transcript is Joseph F. Fanelli, of
this cit3\
I hasten to say that I have known him for many years ; that in my
opinion he is a liighly reputable, very fine, non-Communist member
of the bar of this city.
Mr. SouRWi>rE. Has counsel completed his statement ?
Mr. FoRTAs. Yes.
Mr. Sour"\\t:ne. Mr. Chairman, I hold in my hand first a telegram
addressed by the chairman of this committee to Mr. Edward Shaugh-
nessy, district director, immigration, 70 Columbus Avenue, New York,
N. Y. I ask permission to read it into the record.
Senator O'Conor. Proceed.
Mr. SouRWTXE. It is dated February 25, 1952, and reads as follows :
Re your DD files letter to Victor Lasky, New York World-Telegram, May 18,
1950, reading: "Dear Mr. Lasky: Reference is made to your letter of May 16,
1950, relative to a story appearing in the New York World-Telegiam and Sun
of May 16, 1950, which stated, among other things, that only one copy of the
hearings involving John Santo was ever released by immigration authorities and
that went to Harry Sacher. Our records here disclose that only one copy of
the deportation hearings in the John Santo case was furnished to any one not
an official of the Department of Justice and that was to Harry Sacher, attorney
for John Santo. I do not have any dehnite knowledge as to how, if Mr. Latti-
more's attorneys procured a transcript of the Santo hearing, it was accomplished.
Sincerely yours. Edward J. Shaughnessy." Confirm contents of letter by reply
wire.
Senator Pat McCakran,
Senate Internal Security Suhcommittee.
I now have, Mr. Chairman, the teletype which has been delivered to
the committee this morning, bearing the receipt date February 26,
11 : 26 a. m., 1952, marked with the stamp of the General Services
Administration, confidential copy, reading as follows :
Hon. Pat McCarran,
United States Senate:
Answering your telegram of yesterday, content of my letter referred to is
hereby confirmed.
Edw. J. Shattghnessy,
District Director, Immigration Service, New York City.
Senator O'Conor. They will be admitted into evidence.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 461 and
462," and were read in full.)
Senator O'Conor. As previously announced, we will take a recess at
this time for 1 hour. The committee is in recess.
(Wliereupon, at 12 : 35 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to recon-
vene at 1 : 35 p. m., the same day.)
2968 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
AFTER RECESS
Senator Ferguson (presiding). The committee will come to order.
You may proceed, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, at the recess I had begun asking
Mr. Lattimore several q^uestions covering pages 5 through 8 of his
statement which he had just completed reading. We were discussing
the matter of the Santos transcript. It might be well if we conclude
the discussion of that.
I should like, in order to clear up one point with regard to the
Santos transcript, to ask a question of counsel, since counsel for the
witness has made a statement about that matter. Will the Chair per-
mit that ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. I would like to inquire whether you know whether
Mr. Fanelli, from whom you got this transcript, was associated with
Mr. Sacher in the Santos case ?
Mr. FoRTAS. I do not.
Mr. Sourwine. Now, Mr. Lattimore, is it your testimony that the
Santos transcript was handed up to Mr. Morgan at the Tydings com-
mittee hearings by Mr. Fortas ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is my recollection. I am not sure whether
it was handed to Mr. Morgan or directly to the chairman.
Mr. Sourwine. As a matter of fact, did you not hand that tran-
script up to the Tydings committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. Maybe I did. I don't know.
Mr. Sourwine. And did you not tell the Tydings committee what
they would find on certain pages of that transcript ?
Mr. Lattimore. I may have.
Mr. Sourwine. If you did, were you telling them about those pages
irom hearsay or had you examined those pages ?
Mr. Lattimore. I had not examined those pages. I was told by
my counsel.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you tell the Tydings committee that you had
been told by your counsel ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't believe I did. It could be checked by refer-
ence to the transcript.
Mr. Sourwine. Yes ; we have the reference to the transcript.
Mr. Chairman, I do not want to ask to read it at this time, but I
request that it be marked, the paragraph beginning a little below
the middle of the page 812 of the Tydings hearings and continuing
through the paragraph that ends at the top of the next page, and be
inserted in the record at this point.
Senator Ferguson. It may be inserted.
(The material referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 463," and is as
follows :)
Exhibit No. 463
State Department Employee Loyalty Investigation Hearings Before a
Subcommittee of the Comimittee on Foreign Relations, United States
Senate, Eighty-first Congress
[Pt. 1, pp. 812-813]
The history of this man's participation in questionable ventures did not be-
gin— as it certainly did not end — with his party membership. Before he joined
the party in 1935 he was a radical, left-wing agitator. He has been arrested
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2969
21 times, tried and acquitted 21 times. I assume that he was not guilty, but he
was most certainly remarkably active.
If you are not yet convinced of this man's unsavory character, I suggest that
you read his sworn testimony on cross-examination contained in the official tran-
script of the deportation proceedings entitled "In the Matter of Desideriu
Hammer, alias John Santo, Respondent in Deportation Proceedings, file No.
A-6002664."
I do not wish to discuss the matters contained in this transcript, but I hand
a copy to the subcommittee.
Senator Tydings. It will be put in the record as exhibit 83.
Dr. Lattimoke. I suggest that the committee should not, in advance of examin-
ing this transcript, make it part of the public record.
Senator Tydings. It will be kept sealed and noted in the record as an exhibit
but not spread in the testimony until the committee can look into it.
Dr. Lattimore. Beginning at page 143 of the transcript, which is page 36 of
the typewritten copy, Budenz admits that even before he joined the Communist
Party he engaged in certain personal activities which, to say the least, are of-
fensive to accepted standards of decent and conventional behavior. Beginning
on page 170 of the transcript, which is page 50 of the typewritten copy, Budenz
refuses to respond to a series of questions relating to his personal behavior on
the grounds that his answers might incriminate him. These questions, gentle-
men, relate to two different alleged relationships ; and they all concern Budenz'
activities before he became a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. FoRTAS. May we see that, Senator ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes, surely.
Mr. SouRwiNE. On page 5 of your statement, Mr. Lattimore, you
make the statement that Mr. Budenz weaseled and retreated. Did
you intend by that to express your contempt of the witness who
weasels and retreats ?
Mr. Lattimore. I intended by that to characterize Budenz' manner
as it appeared to me.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You were not intending to express any contempt
for Mr. Budenz ?
Mr, Lattimore. I was not intending to convey the impression that
he was an Eagle Scout, if that is what you mean.
Mr. SouRWiNE. At the bottom of page 5, you quote Mr. Budenz as
saying, in the Tydings hearing, "I have never seen any vestige of
his" referring to you, "Communist Party membership."
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Sourwine. Why did you not quote the next sentence after that,
in Mr. Budenz' testimony ?
Mr. Lattimore. May I see the transcript on that ?
Mr. Sourwine. The next sentence after that reads :
What I have received is these official reports which are quite binding and were
binding on me as a member of the Communist Party.
Is that not correct ? If you cannot find it in your transcript, you
will find it at page 527, the fourth paragraph from the end, of the
transcript I just handed you, the printed transcript. I am sorry,
the chairman has that now.
Do you have it now ? It is on page 527, the fourth paragraph from
the end.
Mr. Lattimore. 527, which paragraph did you say ?
Mr. Sourwine. Maybe I have the wrong page reference. It is
possible.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Fortas, did you know Harry Sacher?
Mr. Fortas. I may have met him some time. I know that I have
not seen him within my present recollection.
2970 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Ferguson. Do you know whether or not he has been dis-
barred as far as the Federal court of New York is concerned?
Mr. FoRTAS. I have seen that in the press, Senator ; yes. The case
may be on appeal. I don't know.
Senator Ferguson. Yes. But there had been an action concerning
him in at least the lower court ?
Mr. FoRTAS. Yes ; that is right.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know that he was sentenced for con-
tempt of court in the so-called 11 Communist trial that was presided
over by Judge Medina?
Mr. FoRTAs. I read that in the press ; yes.
Senator Ferguson. And sentenced to 6 months?
Mr. FoRTAS. I don't remember that.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know whether or not it has been con-
firmed by the appellate court ?
Mr. FoRTAs. I think that is right. I think it is before the Supreme
Court now.
Mr. SouRWiNE. That is on page 527, the fourth paragraph from
the end.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I find that.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Will you read that whole paragraph there ? That
is Budenz's testimony ; is it not ?
Mr. LA'rriMORE (reading) :
The point is this : I would say of course the question of personal knowledge is
a legal question in a certain way, but I would say, so far as meeting Mr. Latti-
more, as seeing him in meetings, that I have never done so, that I have never
seen any vestige of his Communist Party membership. What I have received
is these official reports which are quite binding and were binding on me as a
member of the Communist Party.
Mr. SouRWiNE. That is all. The question I am asking, sir, is why,
when you quoted the sentence "I have never seen any vestige of his
Communist Party membership" and quoted it in the context of show-
ing that Mr. Budenz was admitting, as you contend, that he had no
basis for any assertion with regard to your Communist Party member-
ship, why did you not go on and quote the next sentence in the same
paragraph of Mr. Budenz's testimony ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, I have no objection whatever to the
next sentence being included in the record.
Senator Ferguson. That was not the question. The question was
why you did not put it in, not whether you have an objection to it.
Mr. Lattimore. Because I thought that the point that Budenz
admitted that he had never seen any vestige of Communist Party
membership on my part was the pertinent point I was trying to make.
I had been trying to write a statement not longer than absolutely
necessary.
Senator Ferguson. Do you think it was modified ?
Mr. Lattimore. This other statement — there are other statements
that appear at other points in the Ty dings transcript, and it is part of
the hearsay part of Mr. Budenz's evidence.
For instance, on page 1137 of the Tydings-typed transcript, Budenz
says :
Outside of what I was officially told by the Communist leaders, I do not know
of Mr. Lattimore as a Communist.
I did not quote that either.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2971
Senator Ferguson". Do you not think that the statement you gave
was modified by the next sentence ?
Mr. Lati'imore. ISIodified by the next sentence ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes ; the one that was read.
Mr. Lattumoee. They are two separate sentences.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. Did you ever inveigh against anyone for quoting
things out of context, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe that this committee has introduced a
great many quotations out of context ; yes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever inveigh against anyone ?
Senator Ferguson. You did not answer the question at all, did you ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know that I would use the word "inveigh."
I have pointed out that people have used statements out of context.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Have you ever expressed your disapproval of using
statements out of context?
Mr. Lattimore. I have expressed my disapproval of using state-
ments out of context. I do not think that this particular point, if
that is what you are referring to, is the point out of context.
]Mr. Sourwine. That is what I was going to ask you, whether you
think you have quoted this thing out of context ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I think I have given a fair connotation of Mr.
Budenz's testimony over all.
Mr. Sourwine. On paae 6 you referred to an article by a Chinese
Communist published in I'acific Affairs, which you say was the single
exception to a rule.
Are you there referring to the article Agrarian Democracy in
Northwest China, by Ma Ning, do you recall ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that is probably the reference. Inciden-
tally, I don't mean — you use the word '"rule" there. I don't mean rule
in the sense that the magazine had any rule against presenting the
views of Chinese Communists. I mean, as it so happens, that is the
only one we had that I have been able to find.
Mr. Sourwine. At the top of page 7, sir, you say :
Now, it is characteristic of tliis man and of this dark world of intrigue, that
your counsel, Mr. Morris, carefully refrained in the hearings before you from
asking Budenz whether he had read my writings.
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Sourwine, Do you realize, sir, that the plain meaning of that
language is a charge that something which Mr. Morris did is charac-
teristic of Mr, Budenz ?
Mr. Lattimore. Is that your interpretation of it?
Mr. SouRAViNE. I am asking you if you realize that that is the
plain meaning of the language.
Mr. Lattimore. My interpretation of the meaning of the language
is that Mr. Morris, with eveiy opportunity to straighten out the
Budenz record, did not do so.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you deny that the plain meaning of that lan-
guage is the statement that something Mr. Morris did is characteristic
of Mr. Budenz?
Mr. Lattimore. I am stating that it is characteristic of this man,
in this dark world of intrigue. I mean, the whole way in which
Budenz has been allowed to make his accusations, broadcast, with no
checking or verifying of his credibility, no testing questions whatever.
2972 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRWiNE. You are talking about something Mr. Morris did;
are you not?
Mr. Lattimore. I go on to
Mr. SouKwiNE. No, not going on, sir. In this particular sentence
you are talking about something Mr. Morris did.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, it is characteristic of this procedure,
Mr, SouRwiisrE. You are talking about something Mr. Morris did;
are you not ?
Mr. Lattimore. That Mr. Morris carefully refrained in the hear-
ings
Mr, SouRwiNE, And you are stating that what Mr. Morris did in
that regard is characteristic of Mr. Budenz; are you not?
Mr. Lattimore. If you would like to interpret it that way.
Mr. SoTiRWiNE. Do you deny that you intended it that way ?
Mr, Lattimore. All right, if you want to put that word in my
mouth, I will intend it that way,
Mr. SouRWiNE. Please do not intend it that way for me, sir. I
am asking you what you did intend. I think it is germane to this
committee to know whether the plain import of wdiat you said is
something which you intended to say.
Mr. Lattimore. Mr, Sourwine, the use of the words "this dark
world of intrigue" is in itself a statement on my part that there are
things here that I cannot fathom, that I think that the proceedings
would have been much fairer and clearer if there had not been this
mystery and this atmosphere of intrigue. Precisely what character-
istics Mr. Morris and Mr. Budenz shared in this dark world of in-
trigue is something that I don't know. If I had known, 1 would
have said it.
Senator Ferguson, What do you mean by "intrigue" here, as used?
Mr. Lattimore. I mean this manner of presenting evidence when
it had been clearly shown in the Tydings hearings that Budenz was
unreliable and evasive, to present him all over again before this sub-
committee without a single question to check his credibility.
Now, I am not saying, Senator, that my view of Budenz is necessarily
correct. I am not saying that the evidence in tile Tydings trans-
script is all the evidence there would be. I am merely saying that
I think that, in view of the nature of the accusations made by Budenz,
some check should have been made before this committee. And did
your committee ask your counsel if they had checked Budenz' cred-
ibility?
Mr. Sourwine. Do you have any knowledge, sir, of any checks that
may have been made?
Mr. Lattimore. All I can see is an absence of any check.
Senatpr Ferguson. Did you know that Budenz had been used by the
Justice Department on many occasions in court and had been vouched
for as to credibility by the Justice Department of the United States?
Mr. Lattimore. That was not brought up, Senator, in the Tydings
hearings.
Senator Ferguson. My questi6n was did you know ?
Mr. Lattimore. There is something pertinent to this that I have on
the record before. Senator.
Senator Ferguson. Would you like to return to that later ?
Mr. Fortas, Mrs. Lattimore is looking for it now.
Mr. Sourwine. You say Mrs. Lattimore is looking it up now ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2973
Mr. FoRTAs. Yes.
Senator Ferguson. You may proceed. We will return to it later.
Mr. SouRwiNE. May I ask this question, Mr. Lattimore ? With re-
gard to this sentence we are discussing, the first sentence at the top
of page 7 of your statement, now that we haf e had some discussion
of it here and now that you have reread it, is there anything that that
sentence appears to you to convey that you want to disavow here or in
any way circumscrilDe or amend?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, I considered that sentence carefully
before I wrote it, and I will stay with it as it stands.
Mr. SouR^VINE. I am sure you did. Now at the end of that first
paragraph at the top of page 7 you say :
Mr. Morris and Budenz sought to achieve just as good a general effect.
By that statement do you mean that Mr. Morris and Mr. Budenz
had a common purpose?
JNIr. Lattlmore. I mean that the record as it stands certainly looks
like that.
Mr. SouRA\T:]srE. In your opinion, Mr. Morris and Mr. Budenz had a
common purpose; is that correct?
Mr. Lati'imore. In my opinion, Mr. Morris brought on Mr. Budenz
and asked him questions which, as I stated just above, enabled Budenz
to avoid the choice of plain, not fancy, perjuring on confessing that he
had no basis for his charges. At this moment. Senator, I have found
the point which I was looking for.
Senator Ferguson. You may proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. This is in a statement made by me before the Tyd-
ings committee. I don't have the page reference to the printed
hearings :
Third, I am informed that the Department —
that is, the Department of Justice —
does not vouch for the general character or credibility of its witnesses. At most,
it impliedly represents that the use that they are qualified to testify on matters
upon which they are questioned ; for example, in appropriate cases it calls as
Government witnesses narcotic peddlers, gangsters, racketeers, confessed mur-
derers, and thugs. «
Senator Ferguson. Does it not vouch for the fact that when they
call a witness such as they used Budenz for in these cases, they at least
believe what he is going to say to be true and not perjury ?
Mr. Lattimore. Presumably on the point for which they are call-
ing him. But Budenz was not called by the Department of Justice
to testify against me.
Senator Ferguson. No ; I am not talking about you now. I tried
to eliminate you as much as possible out of the case.
But if they call him in one of these other cases, they vouch for the
credibility of what he is going to say in that case ; do they not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Presumably.
Senator Ferguson. Yes. You may proceed.
Mr. Sourwine. Thank you, sir. If we can get back to the question
of your statement that Mr. Morris and Budenz sought to achieve just
as good a general effect, did you intend by that to imply any prear-
rangement between Mr. Morris and Mr. Budenz ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no knowledge how much they may have
prearranged things between them. I wrote that sentence simply
88348— 52— pt. 9 6
2974 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
because it looked to me as if botli Morris and Budenz had skirted
around difficulties known to both of them from the previous hearings
before the Tydings committee.
Mr. SouRwiNE. But to put it bluntly, were you not then, and are you
not now, charging conspiracy between Mr. Budenz and Mr. Morris to
achieve what you call just as good a general effect?
Mr. Lattimore. My counsel tells me that he believes that that is a
question of legal opinion on which I don't have to express myself.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Is tliere anything in that statement, that sentence
that I read, which you now want to disavow or amend or circumscribe
in any way?
Mr. Lattimore. Not at all.
Senator Ferguson. Would you say the innuendo is there, that you
are charging Morris and Budenz in a conspiracy to bring about
perjury?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I said above that this whole thing appears
to me to be a dark world of intrigue. The point has just been brought
up that the definition of conspiracy is a legal question. I don't know
about conspiracy, collusion, anything of that kind. I have simply
made the point that the record shows that both men skirted around
points of difficulty well known to both of them.
Senator Ferguson. Let us leave the word "conspiracy" out and use
the word that they just combined to have perjury committed.
Mr. Lattimore. To have what?
Senator Ferguson, To have perjury committed in the proceedings.
Is that not what you say ?
If he had, Budenz would have had the choice of plain, not fancy, perjury or
confessing that he had no basis for his charge. Instead, Mr. Morris and Budenz
sought to achieve just as good a general effect.
Mr. Lattimore. What I was pointing out was that the line of ques-
tioning followed was one which permitted Budenz to evade the whole
question of perjury.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Lattimore, you say Mr. Morris obligingly
asked. Who was he obliging, in your opinion ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, Mr. Sourwine, in view of the fact that no
questions were asked that would cause Budenz the slightest difficulty,
in view of the fact that Budenz was enabled to go further and be even
more outrageous in his accusations than he was before the Tydings
committee, obliging — that is, obliging Mr. Budenz — is the only term
1 can think of.
Mr. Sourwine. That is what I wanted to find out, how you intended
It. And when you say a little further on, "Budenz obligingly re-
plied," who did you intent to say Mr. Budenz was obliging?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know whether Mr. Budenz was obliging
Mr. Morris personally or obliging the committee. But he was appar-
ently giving an answer that he thought would be well received.
Mr. Sourwine. In the next paragraph jou refer to a conference
with the editor of Collier's magazine.
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know whether that conference was face to
face or over the telephone ?
Mr. Lattimore. My recollection of the discussion before the Tyd-
ings committee is that it must have been face to face, and with a
stenographer present.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2975
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you think the Tydings committee record shows
that?
Mr, Lattimore. That is my recollection. I would be glad to have
it verified.
Mr. SoTJR^viNE. We would be glad to have you verify it, sir, if you
can find anything in the Tydings record that indicates that.
Mr. FoRTAS. May the witness take a look at it ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. No.
Mr. Lattimore. I think I have found it here.
Mr. Sourwine. I have before me, sir, the page of the printed record
which confirms that. I wanted to question you about it. I will be
glad to wait, if you finish.
Mr. Lattimore. I think perhaps we could save time. We have had
a 4- or 5-minute pause liere. If you would look at this page which I
hand you, which is, I believe, the printed record of that transcript, it
might save time. I simply want to ask you a question about it.
Mr. FoRTAS. Do you want to skip this point ?
Mr. Sourwine. It is a relatively immaterial point, sir. It is our
worth holding up the proceedings over. I simply wanted to ask about
the nature of this conversation.
Was not this the case of the editor of Collier's, or one of the editors,
or editorial board members of Collier's, talking with Mr. Budenz
about an article he had written for Collier's and a draft of which
was then in the possession of Collier's and in the possession of this
editor ?
Mr. Lattimore. So I gather from the transcript, yes.
Mr. Sourwine. And was not the editor of Collier's asking Mr.
Budenz about what he said in that article ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Was he not saying "You say this here, now how
about that? You do not say this here." Is that not correct?
Mr. Lattimore. That is the sort of conference it was.
Mr. SouR^^^NE. He was not asking Mr. Budenz "Wliat do you, Mr.
Budenz, say to me now about the question of whether anyone is or is
not a Communist?" He was asking Mr. Budenz "Do you, in this
article, say anything about Mr. Lattimore?"
Mr. Lattimore. No, he was apparently — my name was brought in
there, and the editor suggested this — that the way Budenz had put it
made it look as though I had been a Communist agent, and Budenz
backed off and said he was not stating that I acted as a Communist
agent in any way.
Mr. Sourwine. That is your interpretation of what took place; is
that right?
Mr. Lattimore. That is my answer to your question.
Mr. Sourwine. All right.
That is quite correct, Mr. Fortas, that is what I asked him for.
I ask, Mr. Chairman, that this material in small type, which appears
on page 512 of the State Department employee loyalty hearings, the
Tydings hearings, may be inserted in the record of this committee at
this point. That is what I asked Mr. Lattimore to read and what we
were discussing.
Senator O'CoNOR (presiding). It will be so inserted.
(The material referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 464" and is as
follows:)
2976 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Exhibit No. 464
State Department Employee Loyalty Investigation Heakings Befoke a
Subcommittee of the Committee on Foreign Relations United States
Senate, Eighty-first Congress
[Pt. 1, p. 512]
Question. You tell about Browder saying that the followers of Mao Tse Tung
had to be presented in a new light. It's easy to see that this was an idea the
Communists had to push. Don't show that they invented this idea, show that they
fostered it.
Answer. I'll do that.
Question. You have done one thing here that I think is not good. By inference
you implied that Joe Barnes and Lattimore are not Communists exactly but are
fellow travelers. You say the Communists supposedly endorsed Roosevelt.
Answer. I think probably what we ought to do is to leave out those names
entirely. Perhaps we can rephrase it some way. I said it merely to show that
they would add meat to what I was saying.
Question. From our standpoint it seems that you were damning these people.
This might put us in an embarrassing legalistic position. We have no particular
reason to smear Lattimore. The same thing applies to that thing about Roosevelt
on page 5. Why did you use the word "supposedly"?
Answer. It was only because from time to time they were supporting Browder
inferentially. They didn't come out and say they were for Roosevelt. Their
arguments were for Roosevelt but their candidate was Browder. The Communist
support of Roosevelt was not an actual support but only a way of winning the
people over that were undecided.
Question. On page 7 you say ''This idea of the 'upstanding Chinese Communists,
the great agrarian reformers,' was peddled everywhere from that time on." You
haven't given a single instance that it was peddled or that the idea was planted
by the Communists. Give at least one instance, or more than one if possible.
Answer. Lattimore and Barnes became champions of some of these ideas as
time went on.
Question. You're not saying that they acted as Communist agents in any way?
Answer. No.
Question. That ought to be quite clear.
Answer. Oh, yes.
Mr. FoRTAS. May I make the point that the hearings before the
Tydings committee inchided the entire transcript of this conference
between the editor of Collier's and Mr, Biidenz. I point that out
to you. I do not know what this segment is to be introduced, but
the committee may want to consider whether you want the entire
transcript.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Is counsel suggesting that an effort is being made
here to take something out of context ?
Mr. FoRTAS. Of course not, Mr. Sourwine. I haven't seen what
you are offering. Customarily, when evidence is offered in any pro-
ceeding that I know of, it is shown to opposing counsel in advance.
I am not asking you to do that.
Mr. Sourwine. This is material with which it was assumed counsel
was thoroughly familiar, having participated in the Tydings hearings.
Mr. Fortas. I have never seen the printed transcript, and neither
has Mr. Lattimore. I don't know what the pages are.
Senator O'Conor. You may proceed to the next question.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, at the risk of cluttering this record,
there are only a little over two pages of the entire transcript that is
referred to, and they appear beginning on page 513. May those pages
now be inserted at this point in the record ?
Senator O'Conor. All right; they will be inserted.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2977
Mr. SoTTRWiNE. And leaving the previous excerpt which was in-
serted in the record at that point so that anyone may compare to see
if they were taken out of context.
Senator O'Conor. It will be so included.
(The material referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 465" and is as
follows:)
Exhibit No. 465
Statk Department Employee Loyalty Investigation Hearings Before a
subcomillttee of the committee on foreign relations, united states
Senate, Eighty-First Congress
[Pt. 1, pp. 512-516]
budenz article red myths, starring china
(By Mr. Leonard Paris)
Question. The main problem, IMr. Budenz, was that we felt that your thesis of
this piece wasn't entirely proved. Let me tell you what I think of it : We need
more documentation on some of the things. On the second page you say the
whole idea of coalition government was concocted by Soviet Russia in order
to defeat America in the Far East. I don't doubt that their support of coali-
tion government was a contributing factor, but who first suggested coalition
government?
Answer. The Communists.
Question. Before it had been publicly mentioned anywhere else?
Answer. Yes.
Question. I think you ought to mention when and where and by whom
coalition government came to public attention.
Answer. It was the Communists who pushed it and made use of it. I will get
the authority for this.
Question. On page 3, the sentence reading: "These Moscow agents, pledged
by their own declaration," etc., you quote "a sort of nonpartisan leaguer."
Where does this come from?
Answer. This comes from Browder. That is to say I don't know of anyone
who used that phrase. It was used for an argument that the Communists in
China are different. However, I will get authority for that statement. I used
it because it was pushed by the Communist Party.
Question. Here is an example of the sort of thing that needs more incidents
and instances. On page 4 the sentence which reads "At every turn of history,
the Chinese Communists, etc." I think it would be well for all readers if you
gave some examples of that, other than just the pact between Russia and China.
You're talking about the Soviet nonaggression pact. We need more examples to
support that.
Answer. I'll get you that.
Question. You tell about Browder saying that the followers of Mao Tse-tung
had to be presented in a new light. It's easy to see that this was an idea the
Communists had to push. Don't show that they invented this idea, show that
they fostered it.
Answer. I'll do that.
Question. You have done one thing here that I think is not good. By inference
you implied that Joe Barnes and Lattimore are not Communists exactly, but are
fellow travelers. You say that Communists supposedly endorsed Roosevelt?
Answer. I think probably what we ought to do is to leave out those names
entirely. Perhaps we can rephrase it some way. I said it merely to show that
they would add meat to what I was saying.
Question. From our standpoint it seems that you were damning these people.
This might put us in an embarrassing legalistic position. We have no particular
reason to smear Lattimore. The same thing applies to that thing about Roose-
velt on page .5. Why did you use the word "supposedly"?
Answer. It was only because from time to time they were supporting Browder
inferentially. They didn't come out and say they were for Roosevelt. Their
arguments were for Roosevelt but tlieir candidate was Browder. The Com-
munist support of Roosevelt was not an actual support but only a way of winning
the people over that were undecided.
2978 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Question. On page 7 you say "This idea of the 'upstanding Chinese Com-
munists, the great agrarian reformers,' was peddled everywhere from that time
on." You haven't given a single instance that it was peddled or that the idea
was planted by the Communists. Give at least one instance, or more than one
if possible.
Answer. Lattimore and Barnes became champions of some of these ideas as
time went on.
Question. You're not saying that they acted as Communist agents in any way?
Answer. No.
Question. That ought to be quite clear.
Answer. Oh, yes.
Question. You say that the entire history of coalition governments was that
Russia took over eventually. We need concrete instances, and examples very
much more effective. They must also be complete enough so that they can be
quickly identified and so that the reader can see that they are true.
Answer. It will be very brief.
Question. On page 10, "On December 7 last, it was discovered in Washington
that there had been a tragic lag in the delivery of promised war material and
other goods to Nationalist China, etc." Isn't the reason for that simply because
Congress didn't appi'opriate more than that? Isn't it true that more aid went
to Greece and Turkey than China simply because more had been appropriated?
Answer. I have to check on that. This was pointed to by the New York
Times in an editorial.
Question. On page 11 thei'e is a dubious slam on the unions. "A special se-
cret order was sent out to the Communists, to be pushed in unions and in every
occupation where sympathizers were engaged, etc." It sounds as though you
can expect to find Communist sympathizers in every union.
Answer. We can change that. It's a document that I'm referring to there.
I will look it up. It may be the way it is phrased. The unions are the chief
opponents of the Communists. Communists are always trying to work within
the unions. In a number of unions they do have Communists as they do in all
fields.
Question. "Arrangements were made whereby the legs of book reviewers were
to be pulled so that those works which gave a break to the Chinese Communists
would receive favorable notices." etc. We need an instance of this. Make the
article much more effective by getting an actual case.
Answer. In previous articles my statements were specific ; then they were
made very general.
Question. Any documentation?
Answer. No. I can't prove it legally. That's why I use a general phraseology.
Question. Best thing to do is leave it out.
Answer. The trouble is I did have a host of specific examples and then had
to take them out.
Question. On the Amerasia case, refresh most of our readers as to what actu-
ally happened. Did the defendants get off without any difficulties? How did
it work out?
Answer. Jaffe was fined and one other defendant, Larson (I have to check
up on this) got a small suspended sentence. Nobody went to jail. Mitchell
was not given punishment of any kind.
Question. Can you indicate how Communist pressure was exerted?
Answer. I'll make an effort to check this. This is pretty well known. That's
why I didn't go into it.
Question. But people forget details. The actual outcome of the case should
be stated and the definite part that the Communists played.
Answer. Definitely. I should tell more of what these documents contain.
The plans of Chiang Kai-shek's army and the economic plans of the Chinese
Government were in tho.se papers.
Question. On bottom of page 16, "In his address Mr. John Carter Vincent indi-
cated Nationalist China as a place unsound to invest private or public capital."
You're not trying to imply that this was a Communist idea, are you ? Hasn't it
been pretty well demonstrated that Nationalist China was unsound?
Answer. The State Department was supporting Nationalist China.
Question. The point is, Mr. Vincent's quotes on Nationalist China may or may
not have been the result of the Communist lie.
Answer. I'll have to link it more closely. It was accepted in the Far East
division. I'll bring you more information on this.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2979
Question. If Mr. Carter's advice were taken, you claim there would be an awful
fiasco. Isn't there any possibility that part of the trouble in China is the Chinese
Government itself?
Answer. Surely.
Question. Never in any part of the article was it admitted that Chiang Kai-
shek's government was weak and corrupt. You're trying to show the Commu-
nist influence.
Answer. Let me take hold of that. I'll present more examples of Communist
activity and show how the activity played its part.
Question. Vie shouldn't try to convince our readers that Chiang Kai-shek was
all white and that Communist propaganda led to what happened over there.
Answer. As a matter of self-defense, America was completely unaware of what
was taking place in China.
Question. You have to prove that General Carlson was a party liner — back
it up.
Answer. He was such a striking example. He was a Communist many years.
I can be stronger. I can give you instances. I can show you who was associated
with him on this committee.
Question. On page 21: "It was out of all these pressures, Moscow-directed,
that President Roosevelt was persuaded to amend our solemn pledge of China's
integrity made at Cairo to the Yalta promise that Soviet Russia would get Outer
Mongolia and even a chance at Manchuria, et cetera." Moscow-directed pres-
sures were not solely responsible ; that is putting it a little too broadly.
Answer. It shouldn't be solely.
Question. "It is from such creation of confusion in the American mind that
we have promised aid to China and not given it in the measure it was pledged."
You were referring to the New York Times editorial, I presume. Show actual
figures.
Answer. I'm glad you raised this about Roosevelt. I can tell more in this
piece. The reason I don't go more into the Communist activities is because
I don't want to sound repetitious of some of the other articles. The methods used
by the Communists have a somewhat similar tone. The tactics described sound
like it happened before.
Question. On these things, the more instances you can show to bear out what
you say or what your thesis is, the better it will be. It has to be more than just
implied or inferred. Make it as definite as you can possibly make it without get-
ting into libel.
Answer. There is a terrific .iob in writing this. I know certain connecting
links which I dare not say. I try to bring them out, but they become somewhat
broken, because I cannot give the link. I will make some of these definite changes
that you suggest. I will enlarge the information on the Chiang phraseology.
Mr. SouRwiNE. At the top of page 8, sir, and this is the last point I
wish to inquire about before you go ahead with the reading of your
statement, you say :
This same Mr. Morris is the one who invited Budenz to testify that I received
instructions as a member of a Communist cell.
I would like to ask you how did the question that Mr. Morris asked
at that point invite any particular testimony from Mr. Budenz?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, that second sentence was written
after careful consideration, and after reading the part of the tran-
script in which Mr. Morris was questioning Budenz.
Incidentally, the smooth way in which Budenz was allowed to pre-
sent his accusations forms rather a startling contrast with the ques-
tioning of accused witnesses before this committee.
The only conclusion I could come to from that reading was that the
entire method of Mr. Morris' questioning constituted an open
invitation.
Mr. Sourwine. I see. You were not referring to the particular
question that you have here cited in your testimony ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am referring to the whole of the questioning.
2980 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRA\^NE. All right. I have no more questions up to this point
where the witness concluded reading his statement.
Senator O'Conor. Will you proceed? Again, just by way of expe-
diting the proceeding, it appears to me that there is a natural break
at the end of page 14, before taking up the several points that the
witness indicates were used in a certain matter. It occurs to me that,
from this point on, until the conclusion of page 14, which may be a
natural segment or just a segment, that you miglit want to proceed and
read it entirely. ^
Mr. Lattimore. I am entirely with you. Senator.
Senator O'Conor. All right, go ahead. You may proceed from the
middle of page 8.
Mr. Lattimore. As for the Institute of Pacific Relations, your chair-
man has already publicly proclaimed that lie has prejudged it, and
I do not suppose that anything I say will change his mind. In a
printed interview, while the investigation is still in process, he has
already stated, as his "curbstone opinion," that the institute "was taken
over by Communist design and made a vehicle for attempted control
and conditioning of American thinking and American policy with
regard to the Far East." It was also used — he said — "for espionage
purposes to collect and channel information of interest or value to
the Russian Communists" (United States News and World Report,
November 16, 1951 ) . It sounds almost as if the curbstone from which
the distinguished Senator delivered this opinion had been imported
from one of the countries in which accusation is accepted as conclusive
of guilt. My own relations with the IPR were gone into quite thor-
oughly before the Tydings subcommittee, the record of which your
counsel, Mr. Morris, has so sedulously kept out of sight. I therefore
ask permission to submit as an exhibit a copy of my statement of May
2, 1950, to the Tydings committee, and I particularly call your atten-
tion to the analysis, beginning page Dl, showing that my writings
have not followed the Communist line, have conflicted with the Com-
munist line, and have been bitterly attacked by Communists.
May I offer that, Senator ?
Senator O'Conor. Yes ; that will be received and marked for ref-
erence.
Mr, Lattimore. Thanlc you.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 466," and is
filed in the committee file for reference. )
Mr. Lattimore. The proceedings before this subcommittee have
created so much confusion and mystification about the IPR that I
want to repeat, in plain English, that I never had any administrative
responsibility in the American IPR, or any supervision of its staff.
I have been for some years a trustee, and for a short time after the
war I was a member of the executive committee of the American IPR ;
but as I do not live in New York, my attendance at meetings was
infrequent. I also want to say clearly that in my own work as editor
of Pacific Affairs from 1934 to 1941 I was not dominated or directed
or influenced in any way by Communist or pro-Communist people or
attitudes. Pacific Affairs was not an American publication. It was
an international publication. I was not responsible to the American
IPR, but to the international council.
Articles appearing in Pacific Affairs were circulated in advance to
readers in a number of countries. Articles dealing with current con-
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2981
troversies were always shown in advance to someone representing the
other side of the controversy, in order to maintain a high standard
of debate and discussion, while eliminating mere propaganda as far
as was humanly possible.
I call your attention to my analysis of Pacific Affairs during the
years I edited it which appears on pages C-1 to C-5 of my statement
of May 2, to the Tydings committee, which I have just handed to you,
and from which I wish to quote a few paragraphs :
May I remind you that throughout this period there was nothing reprehensible
or even unusual about the occasional publication of significant left-wing views
or the analysis of left-wing movements in far eastern countries" Such views
and analyses appeared in all the leading journals of the United States and the
whole "Western World. In those days, before Kohlberg, McCarthy, and Budenz
undertook to revise the American tradition of free inquiry and free speech, no-
body dreamed of accusing an editor or publisher of being a Russian spy because
such views were printed.
I have made a new tabulation for you of all material published in Pacific
Affairs under my editorship. Of a total of 250 contributions, only 17 — written
by 11 persons — could possibly be called, by anyone, left of center because of facts
or opinions favorable to Russia, Chinese Communists, guerrillas, or leftist move-
ments in Asia. Remember this was an international magazine ; 94 articles were
definitely right of center, and 143 either dealt with nonpolitical and noneconomic
subjects or presented purely neutral points of view. There was nothing even
remotely like a "mobilization" of Communist or leftist writers.
I would also like to point out that the same 11 people who contributed the
17 articles I have mentioned as representing left-wing positions contributed,
during the same years, a total of at least 204 articles to reputable non-Commu-
nist periodicals including the Saturday Evening Post, Reader's Digest, Literary
Digest, American Mercury, Fortune, and the Atlantic Monthly.
And in the same period we published at least 94 contributions that were defi-
nitely to the right of center, which means about seven times as much right-wing
material as there was material presenting left-wing views or information.
Among our right-wing or anti-Russian contributors were Sir Charles Bell,
British authority on Tibet and Mongolia ; L. H. Hubbard, a Bank of England
economist specializing on Russia : Prof. Robert J. Kerner of the University of
California ; Nicholas Roosevelt ; Elizabeth Boody Schumpeter, who was against
a tough policy toward Japan; Arnold J. Toynbee; F. W. Eggleston, later Aus-
tralian Minister to China ; G. E. Hubbard, right-wing British authority on China ;
William Henry Chamberlin, and a strong representation of Kuomintang writers.
I expect that during the same period, hardly any serious and objective magazine
devoted to analysis of political problems, could show a fairer or more repre-
sentative sample of current thinking.
By promoting the publication and discussion of important facts and
opinions the IPR, in my opinion, was making and is still making a
valuable contribution to our shockingly meager information about the
Far East, To use political intimidation to curtail or eliminate the
free market of facts and ideas to which the IPR has contributed would
be a catastrophe to the best interests of this country.
In a free countr}', the discussion of foreign policy cannot be monop-
olized or patroled by the government. The people of a democracy,
and the officials who handle foreign policy in the government need to
be able to draw upon a wide field of academic and private research,
done by people who are not subject to bureaucratic controls. It is*
right that the Congress should interest itself closely in both the issues
and the conduct of foreign policy, but it is not right that the Congress
should make itself the censor of academic research and personal
opinion.
Beginning in 1938, and continuing for several years, the Institute of
Pacific Relations carried out a special project, called The Inquiry,
financed by a grant from the Rockefeller Foundation. Nothing about
2982 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
The Inquiry was secret. The whole background of war and political
and economic conflict in the Far East was covered, and so were ques-
tions of future peace settlements. More than 30 books were published
as an "inquiry series." These books went straight into public circula-
tion. They could be bought and read by anybody, including Govern-
ment officials.
Another research enterprise was carried on in the same years by the
Council on Foreign Relations in New York. This research was also
financed by a special grant from a private foundation, and its results
were submitted to the State Department.
I did not contribute to the Institute of Pacific Relations inquiry. I
did contribute to the Council on Foreign Relations researcli. I took
part in more than one of the "study groups" and for a time was chair-
man of one of them. I wrote memoranda and expressed opinions.
If this subcommittee is interested in my views, its investigative staff
is open to the charge of extraordinary incompetence for trying to
investigate me through the Institute of Pacific Relations. They should
have looked into my connections with the Council on Foreign Rela-
tions.
In fact, I think that several memoranda which the Council on For-
eign Relations asked me to write in October and November, 1940, were
forwarded by the Council to the State Department. The memoranda
had no effect whatever, I'm sorry to say. In them I predicted that the
Japanese would find it eas}^ to come to terms with the Russians and
that Russia would not act jointly with America. Accordingly, I urged
that we strengthen our position by increasing aid to China, and I
warned that "there is grave danger that we shall get into a war with
Japan, with Russia joyfully neutral and uncooperative."
My warnings of a Russian- Japanese get-together were justified
when they signed a neutrality pact in April 1941. It turned out that
I was right in foreseeing that war between Russia and Germany was
more likely than war between Russia and Japan, in expecting Japan
to turn south, toward Singapore, and not north toward Russia, and,
finally, in warning that this could only be prevented by simultaneously
boosting military supplies to China and cracking down on economic
supplies to Japan. But the record shows that between the time of
these memoranda and Pearl Harbor, a year later, these views of mine
had not the faintest effect on the conduct of American foreign policy.
We continued to aid the Japanese war machine and to hope that Japan
would be kept busy with Russia.
In the good days of freedom v/hen I edited Pacific Affairs for the
IPR, no one was being bullied for having an inquiring mind or inde-
pendent opinions. Every magazine and scholar was eager to get facts
and to publish or read diverse opinions on the issues of the time. In
those days it is regrettably true that nobody — and I mean nobody —
had a crystal ball so that he could see into the future with unerring
success. The nature of Communist infiltration was not known. It
never entered our heads to set up a private FBI or security screening
to determine the exact political affiliation of IPR staff members or
contributors to IPR publications. It didn't enter anybody else's head,
either. The Saturday Evening Post, the Luce publications, and the
Wall Street Journal didn't work that way, either.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2983
As a matter of fact, we had the best protection against being man-
ipulated or duped that a private organization could possibly have —
complete openness of discussion of facts and ideas.
Senator Ferguson. Could I ask a question there? Did I under-
stand you to say back further that you had really nothing to do with
the policy or the setting up of what you say now is protection ? And
where did you get this information about the best protection ?
Mr. Lattimore. I did not say anything about setting up anything.
I merely said that we did not set up, and that nobody knows
Senator Ferguson. But you say back here further that you did
not have anything to do with the policy of the IPR.
Mr. Lattimore. 1 said I never had any administrative responsibil-
ities in the American IPR, that is quite true.
Senator Ferguson. Where did you get the information, then, about
"We have the best protection."
Mr. Lattimore. Because I participated in it. Senator; because I
knew that as editor of Pacific Affairs my articles, the articles I pub-
lished, were circulated all over the place before they were published,
and the manuscripts of other articles and also books were circulated
all ( iver the place, including some of them coming to me sometimes.
Senator Ferguson. So that you did know what was going on, you
werii being consulted about what w^as going on in the IPK,^
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir, I was not being consulted about what was
going on. I was receiving some of the material that was thus circu-
lated.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know that any of these people that
have refused to testify before this committee as to Communists, when
they were writing the articles and books for the IPR, did you know
those persons at the time these contributions were being made?
Mr. Lattimore. I knew some of them. I knew of others. I did not
know of any of them as Communists.
Senator Ferguson. Did you make any inquiry or did you know of
any inquiry about their communist leanings, or being Communists?
Mr. Lattimore. I just said, Senator, that it never entered our
heads to set up a private FBI or security screenings as of those years
of the 1930's.
Senator Ferguson. Then you mean by that statement, as a matter
of fact, "we had the best protection," do you mean in the light of not
being of the opinion that there was penetration by Communists ? Not
having that knowledge, is that right ?
Mr. Laitimore. What we were concerned with at that time was the
general question of propaganda or biased presentation of views, any
propaganda, any bias. As a matter of fact, what most people were
concerned about in those days was Japanese propaganda more than
anything else.
Senator Ferguson. Can we agree that the Communists are very
clever in giving out their propaganda ?
Mr. Lattimore. Certainly we can agree on that. I have already
stated that in those days, I think, most people were not yet aware of
the danger of Communist conspiracy or long-range operation.
Senator Ferguson. All right. Then do you not think that with the
lack of knowledge, that it may have been possible for the Communists
to penetrate IPR, and carry on their propaganda ?
2984 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. All I am saying is that the output at that time did
not impress me or other people to whom the material was circulated
as Communist propaganda.
Senator Ferguson. Going back now to this problem as to whether
or not it is innocence rather than knowledge that they did penetrate
IPR, do you think that we ought to disclose to the public, if it was
a fact, that, innocently, as far as anybody that was honest about the
thing in the IPR, allowed penetration to be had, not knowing that
it was being had? Do you not think that if it was penetrated we
should disclose that to the public ?
Mr. Lattimore. There was a part of the beginning of your ques-
tion that I did not get, Senator. I will ask to have it read back.
Senator Ferguson. No; I will give it again. Suppose we assume
for the next question that there was no permission or knowledge upon
any of the managers of the IPR — I want to exclude Mr. Field — but
that as far as you were concerned, as far as Carter was concerned, as
far as Holland and the other people were concerned, that it was be-
cause it never entered your head that anybody would try to penetrate,
but that they did pentrate, should not that fact now lie brought out
to the public so that in the future it would be very difficult for pene-
ration to be had without knowledge?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no objection whatever to that information
being brought out, Senator. In fact, I highly approve of it. What I
disapprove of, in the way in which the evidence has been stacked
before this committee, is the impression that, because certain people
may have been Communists at one time, and I don't know whether
they were Communists at that time or later, that certain people who
may have been Communists at that time were in the IPR, that they
also controlled the policy of the IPR and the output of the IPR.
Now, there are two points there : First, there was no IPR policy to
control ; second, any honest review of the output of the IPR will show
that it did not, in fact, serve Communist interests.
Senator Ferguson. But of course, now, that is your judgment and
you are giving that as your judgment to this committee of seven mem-
bei-s. hoping that they will adopt your judgment. But if they come to
a different conclusion, are you going to accuse them of bad faith, and
is not that what you are doing in this?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir. I am saying that this committee has thus
far admitted an overwhelming amount of accusations and allegations
to state, imply, or insinuate that the IPR was an instrument of the
Communists, that that evidence is not adequate, that the other side has
not been shown, that the enormous output of the IPR of a perfectly
normal and even conservative character has been disregarded, and that
the result is a distorted picture.
Senator Ferguson. They have also permitted this record to show
today that you, purely on hearsay, have branded Louis Budenz as an
immoral person, and other than a Communist, is that not true?
Should we immediately censure you and strike from this record
that statement ? Or should we let it stand ?
Mr. Lattimore. The only thing you could do there. Senator, would
be to refuse to permit me to quote an official document.
Senator Ferguson. You have never seen the official document.
Senator O'Conor. How do you know what was in the official docu-
ment if you admit yourself you have never seen it or consulted it ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2985
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know what my counsel would say to this,
but my feeling is that the relationship between counsel and client is
of such a kind that I was entirely entitled to take his word for it.
Senator Smith. Do you know Harrj^ Sacher ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Smith. Have you ever had any conversation or corre-
spondence with him?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Smith. Have you ever had anybody go from you to him or
from him to you and ask for any of this information ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Smith. Do you know who he is ?
Mr. Lattimore. From the hearings, from the mention that has been
made here.
Senator Smith. You Imow from the press who he is, do you not?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't recall seeing his name in the press.
Senator Smith. You do not recall reading about the trial of the
Communists in New York City, with Judge Medina ?
Mr. Lattimore. I read some of the stories of the trial about the
Communists. I confess I didn't make any minute study.
Senator O'Conor. You are at the top of page 14, at the end of the
second paragraph.
Mr. Lattimore. As a matter of fact we had the best protection
against being manipulated or duped that a private organization could
possibly have — complete openness of discussion of facts and ideas.
All research data, and opinions about the data, were constantly being
circulated to, and commented on and criticized by, people who were
authorities on the subject and who had, among themselves, many dif-
ferences of opinion. Under that system, a research organization
simply cannot be slanted or controlled to promote communism or any
other single and exclusive policy.
If it was party strategy to infiltrate the IPR, I did not suspect it.
Nor as a matter of fact, did Senator Ferguson, who was a member of
and contributor to the IPR from 1936 to 1944 — years when I was active
in it, or Ray Lyman Wilbur or Newton D. Baker or Joseph B.
Chamberlain or Jerome B. Greene or Robert Gordon Sproul.
Maybe a few Communists or pro-Communists did work for the IPR.
1 suppose that a few worked for the United States Government, too,
and for some of our leading papers and great corporations. It does
not follow that this made them communistic, that is, the employer,
or that their other employees or executives were infected with the virus.
In the case of F. V. Field, I had no reason to consider him a Commu-
nist during the period when he was secretary of the American IPR
in the 1930's, although I have no doubt he became one during the 1940's.
I have been shocked and surprised to learn recently that five other
people connected in one way or another with the IPR have refused
to say whether they were ever Communists. If they were Communists
when I know, or knew of them, then I saw no evidence of it. And
certainly an honest and complete review of the IPR will show that
it was never controlled or dominated by Communists.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, may I inquire ?
Senator O'Conor. Yes, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. You speak of five other people, sir. Do you know
that in fact, up to this date, there have been 11 ?
2986 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I didn't.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Field, Moore, Rosinger, Kathleen Barnes, William
Mandel, Mildred Price, Len DeCaux, the two Keeneys, Deane, and
Allen.
Mr. Lattimore. Are those all connected with the IPR ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. Your knowledge is greater than mine.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Now, because of your reference to your shock and
surprise to learn that certain people had refused to answer, I would
like to ask this: Do you think that refusal to answer that question
indicates that the person refusing is a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Lattimore. I thinl<: that that is the general presupposition at
the present time. I am informed that people sometimes do refuse
to answer that question out of principle.
So far as I know, the five that I have mentioned here, nobody even
mentioned that principle. Therefore, I must make the inference
that they probably are or were once Communists.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, do you not know that the Con-
stitution would not allow them to claim exemption from testifying
only on principle, that they must invoke the fifth amendment which
is the one that provides that he shall not testify against himself?
Mr. Lattimore. I will accept your authoritative statement on that.
Mr. Smith. Who are the five that you referred to here? That is, in
this particular spot.
Mr. Lattimore. Field, Harriet Moore, Kathleen Barnes, Len De-
Caux, Rosinger, and Allen, besides Field.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you not know that by the time those persons
you named had testified there were many more than five who had re-
fused to answer that $64 question ?
Mr. Laittimore. What relation did they have to the IPR or to me?
I can only speak of people that I know.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you not know all of these 11 people I named?
Mr. Lattimore. Read them over. I think there are several I never
knew.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know Mr, Field ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I knew him.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know Harriet Moore ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know Lawrence Rosinger ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know Joseph Barnes?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know William Mandel ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. SouR"wiNE. Did you know Harriet Price ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know Len DeCaux ?
Mr, Latitmore. Len DeCaux, I think I have met him ; but I wouldn't
recognize him if he walked into the room.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know the Keeneys ?
Mr, Lattimore. I have met them casually ; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know Mr. Deane?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Deane?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2987
Mr. SoTjRwiNE. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't believe so.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you know James S. Allen ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. SouRwiNE. All right, that establishes who you know.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know that any of these witnesses re-
fused to testify that they knew you on the grounds it might tend to
incriminate them ?
Mr. Lattimore. Here goes some hearsay evidence, Senator.
Senator Ferguson. I am asking you if you ever heard of it ?
Mr. Lattimore. Somebody told me that James S. Allen so testified.
But I didn't see the press report myself, and I heard about that after
this statement was prepared.
Senator Ferguson. How long ago was this statement prepared ?
Mr. Lattimore. It has been in preparation for several months.
Senator Ferguson. Yes ; but when was it finished ?
Mr. Lattimore. It was finished, maybe, 6 or 8 hours before it was
delivered to this committee.
Senator Ferguson. Then why was not Allen's name used here to
make it six ? You had known that Allen refused to testify.
Mr. Lattimore. I was confining m.y remarks to people that I know.
I can only be shocked and surprised about people I know.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know Allen ?
Mr. Lattimfre. I corresponded with him, I never met him. At
least, I don't believe I did.
Senator Ferguson. Then you mean by "know" that you knew them
personally ?
Mr. Lattimore. Or had some contact with them ; yes.
Senator Ferguson. Writing and corresponding is contact, is it not ?
Mr. Lattimore." Yes ; that is right. Well, I have included him,
haven't I ?
Senator Ferguson. Have you?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I did.
Mr. SouRwiNE. The witness did name Mr. Allen.
Mr. Lattimore. All right. I was confused here because I first
mentioned five people besides Field.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You then testified that you did not know Mr. Allen.
Mr, Lattimore. Not in the sense that I don't believe I ever met him.
If you want to say that corresponding means knowing, that is all right,
I will accept that.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Just so the record shows how you mean when you
say.
Mr. Lattimore. In this case I am trying to oblige you by meaning
what you say.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Lattimore, you say here on page 14, "I suppose
that a few," meaning a few Communists, "worked for the United
States Government, too, and for some of our leading papers and great
corporations,"
Mr, Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you have any knowledge of any Communists who
have worked for the United States Government?
Mr. Lattimore. I think I could probably provide you with some
names, if I searched newspaper files. I can't recall offhand. I am
not an expert on the subject.
2988 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. I am speaking of your own knowledge. Do you
have, yourself, any personal knowledge of any Communists who have
worked for the United States Government ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I have.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you have any personal knowledge of any Com-
munists who have worked for any of our leading papers ?
Mr. Lattimore. Leading papers ? No ; I don't think I have.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you have anj^ personal knowledge of any Com-
munists who have worked for any of our great corporations ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I don't think I have.
Mr. SouRAviNE. If we may go back to page 12, sir, where you say,
"The investigative staff of this subcommittee is open to the charge of
extraordinary incompetence for trying to investigate me through the
Institute of Pacific Relations." I ask you, do you know that this
subcommittee began this particular investigation because of its m-
terest in the Institute of Pacific Relations ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe that is in the record ; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know that the subcommittee started out
with a very substantial mass of documents obtained from the files
of the IPR in a manner which you have here characterized as illegal ?
Mr. LiiTTiMORE. It has been given a fair amount of publicity, yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you blame the staff of the committee for the fact
that after we got into those files we found your name on document
after document ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, the point that I was making here,
and this is my principal concern with your inquiry into the Institute
of Pacific Relations, is that this committee or its staff' have tried to use
the Institute of Pacific Relations as a stick to beat me with. And I
was merely pointing out that if they wanted to beat me up they could
do it better with the Council on Foreign Relations.
Mr. Sourwine. Does your ego, sir_ compel you to the conclusion
that this subcommittee is after you rather than investigating the In-
stitute of Pacific Relations ?
Mr, Lattimore. Not my ego ; my epidermis.
Mr. Sourwine. You have come to the conclusion that the committee
is after you ?
Mr. Lattimore. Do you think that any other conclusion would be
possible to a reasonable person ?
Mr. Sourwine. I am asking you what your conclusion is.. If no
other conclusion is possible to a reasonable person, I assume you will
say "Yes," that is your conclusion.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; that is my conclusion.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, that is all of the questions I have
at that point.
Senator O'Conor. Are there any other questions ?
If not, then will you continue, Mr. Lattimore? It occurs to me
that another natural break would be at the top of page 19, that that
would be a statement that might be taken up at one time.
Mr. Lattimore. Fine. The committee staff' has used against me
letters and interoffice memoranda from the files of the IPR. I have
two points that I want to make about the evidence selected from these
files.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2989
(1) Each and every item is, in the context of its time and subject,
completely innocent and explicable, and certainly not evidence of
subversive activity.
(2) The method in which these letters and memoranda have been
used is, to say the least, a startling departure from any possible stand-
ard of fairness or objectivity. They have been presented to witnesses
who did not have access to the full text, and to witnesses who, though
they were neither the writers nor the recipients of this "evidence", have
been asked to interpret what the original writer meant.
As the outstanding example of the way in which my connections
with the IPS have been exploited by this committee, I want to take up a
letter that I wrote to Mr. E. C. Carter on July 10, 1938, because of the
unnecessary and rather silly mystery wiiich has been built up concern-
ing it. ]\Ir. Carter, as well as a number of people who had nothing to
do with the letter, have been asked to comment on it before this subcom-
mittee, whereas I, the author of this letter, was questioned by this sub-
committee for between 5 and 6 hours, in executive session, 2 weeks be-
fore the public questioning of Mr. Carter, and was not asked a single
question about it. If the subcommittee's intention had been to get an
explanation of this letter, I could easily have given it to them. Instead,
Mr. Carter was asked to explain from memory, after 13 years and with-
out being allowed to see the full text, much less the full correspondence
of which it was a part, what he thought I might have meant by a num-
ber of expressions that I used.
I therefore wish to make a rather extended comm.ent.
An obvious effort has been made to try to convey the impression that
I was giving Carter instructions, but the fact is that I did not take the
initiative in writing this letter. Mr. Carter wrote to me, and to a
number of other people, asking for comments on the Inquiry, a special
research job to be undertaken by the IPK, to which I have referred.
In his letter, Mr. Carter had said :
Asiaticus has been employed to prepare a major monograph on certain deter-
mining factors in the Chinese situation. Dr. Chen Han-seng will undertake two
important sections of the Chinese study. An invitation has just been extended
to Mr. Ch'ao-ting Chi to undertake two other sections.
The Inquiry was really none of my business. As I have said I did
not contribute to it, and had no administrative or supervisory responsi-
bility for it. Mr. Carter, however, frequently invited comments or
advice on particular IPR enterprises from people who had no connec-
tion with them.
A great deal has been made of the fact that Asiaticus, Chen Han-
seng, and Ch'ao-ting Chi, the three men mentioned by Mr. Carter, have,
many years later, been identified before this subcommittee as Commun-
ists. Asiaticus was reported killed during the war. The two Chinese
are reported to be now working for the Chinese Communist Govern-
ment, but that is true of a great many Chinese who were loj^al to Chiang
in earlier years. As it turned out, eventually none of these three men
completed a contribution to the Inquiry series.
My reply to Mr. Carter was that he was cagey to invite these three
men to contribute. I thought that Mr. Carter was cagey in exactly
the same sense that a newspaper columnist once described Senator
Homer Ferguson as "benign and cagey." I think that Mr. Carter
can be very aptly described as a benign and cagey man. In his work
for the IPR he has always tried to increase international knowledge
88.348— 52— pt. 9 7
2990 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
and understanding, which is benign, and he has always tried to do so
by mixing together in the free-market place of discussion as many
different points of view as possible, which is equally commendable in
my opinion.
I also stated to Carter that the three men suggested would bring
out "absolutely essential radical issues." Gentleman, you mi^st re-
member the year 1938, and the context. I used the word "radical,"
of course, in its dictionary sense of "fundamental." What I had in
mind — as Carter and anybody else would have known, were the
radical problems of reform in China and China's relations with for-
eign powers. In the course of Japanese aggression, there had been
conspicuous examples of the Chinese of invaded territory refusing
to support the war-lords who oppressed them. They passively ac-
cepted the Japanese, because they had nothing to fight for. This had
led to widespread demands for reforms in order to give the Chinese
people something to fight for, including drastic economic reforms,
especially in rural taxes and in the relations between landlords and
sharecropper tenants.
If China won the war these radical issues w'ould continue to exist
and perhaps might be even more pressing. As we found in every
country that was a victim of aggression in the Second World War,
soldiers who have just defeated a foreign aggressor and people who
have suffered from invasion are likely to demand a better standard
of life.
Eadical international issues were also looming on the horizon.
Chiang Kai-shek had already been pressing for revision of China's
international treaties. With China victorious, the Chinese people
were certainly going to refuse to go back to the old status under which
China was in effect a tributary country to the United States and
Britain as well as to Japan and other countries. China was certainly
going to demand a place among the great powers of the world. Once
we got into the war, the United States recognized this, and over
Churchill's objections we voted for China as one of the Big Five of
the United Nations.
In my letter to Mr. Carter I went on to say that —
for the general purposes of tlie inquiry it seems to me that the good scoring
position, for the IPR, differs with different countries.
By "different countries" I meant, of course, the different National
Councils of the IPR.
For China —
I wrote —
my hunch is that it will pay to keep behind the official Chinese Communist
position, far enough not to be covered by the same label but enough ahead
of the active Chinese liberals to be noticeable.
The situation as of 1938 was as follows : The Communists were taking,
for them, a very moderate position. They were urging rent reduction
and other economic reforms. The Chinese liberals were urging a
wider political representation and an end of the Kuomintang one-
party system, but were hesitating at economic reforms. I thought
economic reforms were essential (and I remind you that it is now
a generally accepted thing that such reforms, especially rural re-
forms, are an imperative necessity all over Asia if disastrous Com-
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2991
inunist revolutions are to be forestalled) ; and in tins respect my
position was in advance of the Chinese liberals. However, as I was
not a Communist, Carter was not a Communist, and the IPR was
not Communist, I did not want the IPR to play into the hands of
the Communists by advocating the same economic reforms and allow-
ing them to claim the credit. The Communists were already claim-
ing that they and they alone were bold enough to demand economic
reforms. I thought that approval, among foreign friends of China,
of the idea of fundamental reforms, especially rural reforms, might
encourage the Chinese liberals to speak up and to break the Com-
munist monopoly of claiming to be progressive.
I also wrote : "For the U. S. S. R., back their international policy
in general" — ■ —
Senator Smith. The U. S. S. R., is that the Soviet Russia that you
are talking about ?
Mr. Lati-iimore. Soviet Russia, yes [reading] :
But without using their slogans and, above all, without giving them or anybody
else an impression of subservience.
This period, 1938, was the period of maximum Soviet cooperation
with the United States, Britain, France, and the League of Nations.
It was the stated policy of tlie U. S. S. R. — almost universally credited
at the time as in good faith — to support international unity and to
resist Japanese and also German and Italian aggression. Even by
1938, however, I had learned through my experience in dealing with
Russians as editor of Pacific Affairs, that it is a standard Soviet
maneuver to try to make every act of agreement between equals look
as if it were acceptance of Soviet leadership. I did not believe in
any such subservience to the Russians, and I did not want the Institute
to make the mistake of allowing the Russians to claim, or anybody
else to believe, that agreement as to international unity and against
aggression was an act of subservience to Russian policy.
Senator Ferguson. You have one statement here in relation to the
letter that indicated to me, and I do not know whether it is right,
that Mr. Carter was prohibited from reading this letter, the total of
the letter, the whole letter.
INIr. Lattimore. Where are we now ?
JNIr. SouRWiNE. On page 15, near the bottom, the sixth line from
the bottom.
Mr. Lattimore. That is the impression I got from the transcript,
Senator. If I am wrong, I should be glad to be corrected.
Senator Ferguson. Without being allowed to read the full text.
I show 5^ou the transcript on page 3G, where the letter was identified
and Senator Eastland asked, "Wlio is the letter from or to?"
Mr. MoRKis. It is from Mv. Owen Lattimore to Mr. Carter, dated July 10, 1938.
The Chairman. I think the witness should do it.
Senator Watkins. He probably can identify it better than anyone.
Mr. Carter. I would like to read it later, but identify it as having been
written by Lattimore to me, that I received it.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. ]MoRRis. Mr. Carter, I would like to read two paragraphs from this and
fisk your comment on them. This is Mr. Lattimore writing to you.
Would that indicate that he was not allowed to read it? That is.
when he had it, identified it. and said that he would like to read it
later, and then it goes in in its entirety 3 pages later as exhibit 4?
2992 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. Later means after the questioning, does it not ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes; it becomes a part of the official record;
it is put into the record.
Mr. Lattimore. But he had not read it in full before he was
questioned.
Senator Ferguson. But that is not what you said. You indicate
that this committee kept him from reading it and would only allow
him to see two paragi-aphs. Is that a fair statement ?
Mr. Lattimore. I will accept your correction on that, Senator. All
I can say is that only part of my time is available, and with very
limited means I have tried to make this statement as accurate as pos-
sible, and I think it compares favorably on the subject of accuracy
with the investigation that has been carried out by this committee with
many, many thousands of dollars of the people's tax-paying money.
Senator Ferguson. Of course, you can keep repeating that, and
the committee is going to allow you to keep repeating that, as to what
you think about the committee.
I know of nobody on the committee that is going to interfere with
you if you put that into the record with every answer.
Senator Smith. Let me ask, Mr. Chairman, this question.
Mr. Lattimore, did you know that this very letter that you are talk-
ing about, the cagey letter, that that was in Mr. Carter's barn up in
Massachusetts on his farm in Massachusetts ?
Mr. Lattimore. I presume that is where it came from.
Senator Smith. I say, Did you know that?
Mr. Lattimore. I couldn't say that from oiffhand. I presume so,
from the point that it was in the record.
Senator Smith. Did you know that those records of the IPR were
taken out of New York City and taken up to Mr. Carter's farm and
put in his barn?
Mr. Lattimore. So I understand j yes.
Senator Smith. Did you know at that time they were taken up
there ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Smith. You never heard about that until the public press
announced it?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, may I inquire briefly as to another
point? On page 15 of your statement, Mr. Lattimore, in the
Mr. Lattimore. Before you go on, Mr. Sourwine, may I point out
that my reference about being allowed covers more than the question
of the full text referred to by Senator Ferguson. I refer also to
"much less the full correspondence of which it was a part."
I believe it is true, is it not. Senator Ferguson, that officers and
members of the institute have not been allowed to have access to the
files while they were in your custody ?
Senator Ferguson. I know of no such rule.
Mr. Morris. No, that is wrong, Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Carter has
been invited down to look at that particular correspondence you are
talking about, by written letter.
Mr. Lattimore. Has he been allowed full access to all of the files
that you hold ?
Mr. Morris. I answered that particular question, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Carter asked about that one, and he was invited to come down
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2993
and look at it. He has never availed himself of the invitation. That
is in writing.
Senator Smith. I think Mr. Lattimore's question pointed to the
fact as to whether or not we would be willing to turn over the files to
Mr. Carter and his cohorts, and we have not been willing to turn
them back to them because we had enough trouble getting them in the
first instance.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Might I inquire, Mr. Chairman ?
On page 15 of your statement, Mr. Lattimore, in the third para-
graph from the top, near the end of that paragraph, you use the word
"evidence." You say:
They have been presented to witnesses who did not have access to the full
text, and to witnesses who, though they were neither the writers nor the recipi-
ents of this "evidence" —
you put the word '"evidence" in quotes. When you were reading the
statement you read the quotation marks.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. What is your purpose in putting that word "evi-
dence" in quotes?
Mr. Lattimore. To emphasize the highly selective nature of the
material on which witnesses have been questioned before this com-
mittee.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you use the word "evidence" in the legal sense ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know whether that is the legal sense or
not.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Does the word "evidence" have a connotation other
than the legal sense in your mind?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know, Mr. Sourwine. I am not a lawyer.
Mr. Sourwine. You had no purpose in using those quotation marks
to indicate your feeling that the documents in question were not evi-
dence, or did you?
Mr. Lattimore. My intention was to indicate that they were a mere
fragment of the evidence.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Over on page 16, you refer to a newspaper colum-
nist who described Senator Ferguson as benign and cagey. Will you
tell the committee who that was and when the column appeared ?
Mr. Lattimore. John O'Donnell, in his column "Capital Stuff," in
the — what is the name of this ?
Senator Ferguson. By "this" you mean a newspaper ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes. It is the Daily something or other. It is
dated Washington, D. C, August 9, and was published in this par-
ticular paper, the name of which is not on the top, on August 10,
1948.
Mr. Sourwine. And how did you come across this particular col-
umn ? How did you find it or who gave it to you ?
Mv. Lattimore. I don't remember. I have an enormous stack of
clippings at home. I clip as much as I can referring to the Far East,
and it is impossible for me to identify where individual clips came
from.
Mr. Sourwine. Is that a clipping from your files ?
Mr. Lattimore. This is a clipping from my files ; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. It has been in your files since approximately the
date on which it appeared?
2994 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore, Presumably.
Ml'. SotTEwiNE. Not specifically called to your attention in connec-
tion with this hearing ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; it was not called to my attention. It was
found by me by accident when pouring through a stack of stuff.
Mr. SouRwiNE. On page 17, sir, of your statement, at the end of the
first paragraph on that page, you refer to reforms in the relations
between landlords and sharecropper tenants.
]Mr. Lattimore. Tliat is right.
Mr. Sourwine. Would you say you were referring to agrarian
reforms ?
Mr. Lattimore. I would say I was referring to agrarian reforms ;
yes.
Mr. Sourwine. And on page 18 you use the term "rural reforms"
twice. Were you there referring to agrarian reforms ?
l\Ir. Lattimore. I think that is a little bit of a quibble, isn't it, Mr.
Sourwine? "Rural reform" and "agrarian reform" are virtually
interchangeable terms.
Mr. Sourwine. That is what I thought. x\.nd the answer is "Yes,"
is it not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Surely.
Mr. Sourwine. That is all of the questions I have.
Senator Smith. Mr. Lattimore, in your reference here to Mr. Carter
not being allowed to see the full text of the letter, you have known all
of the time, have you not, that until those records were seized in Mr.
Carter's barn, that the possession of all of those records, including
that letter, were in him ?
Mr. Lattimore. Presumably, yes.
Senator Smith. Now, did you know anything about the difficuUy
and the delay that the committee experienced in getting some other
records that turned out to be in Mr. Field's basement and unbeknown
to the committee, and some that were not in the barn ? Did you know
about those records?
Mr. Lattimore. I saw some reference to it in the press.
Senator Smith. Did you know anything about those records being
put in Mr. Field's basement at the time ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not a thing.
Senator Smith. You had severed your connection with IPR ?
Mr. Lattimore. I had no connection — no, I was connected with the
IPR, but I was not consulted on the disposal of back files, dead files.
Senator Smith. So you disclaim any knowledge or responsibility
for the records that were taken out of the IPR office and put in Mr.
Field's basement in New York City?
]Mr. Lattimore. I have no responsibility for it whatever.
Senator Smith. Did you have anything whatever to do with the
suggestion that these records of the IPR be taken from New York
and transported to Mr. Carter's barn in Massachusetts?
Mr. Lattimore. I had nothing to do with it.
Senator Smith. Were you connected with the IPR at that time ?
Mr. Lattimore. I was probably at that time — I would have to
know the exact year, but I was very likely a trustee at that time.
Senator Smith. As a trustee, you had full access to the records of
the IPR, did you not?
Mr. Lattimore. Presumably, if I wanted them.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2995
Senator Smith. And you availed yourself of that right at any
time that you wished to examine IPR records?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think I ever availed myself of it.
Senator Smith. You do not think you did?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Smith. Did you ever go to Mr. Carter's farm ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have been to Mr. Carter's farm, yes.
Senator Smith. When did you go to Mr. Carter's farm?
Mr. Lattimore. I can't remember. It must have been years ago,
the last time.
Senator Smith. You know the barn in which these papers were
placed ?
Mr. Lattimore. I know the big barn on his place. It is probably
the same one.
Senator Smith. Did you ever go in that barn?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I have been there.
Senator Smith. Did you ever go to the barn while any of these
papers were in there?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no idea whether they were there or not.
Senator Smith. Did you examine any of the files of the IPR in Mr.
Carter's barn?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I didn't.
Senator Smith. Did you ask for any of those papers to be brought
from his bam for you to examine, either in his house or elsewhere?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Smith. So you never saw any of these records after they
were taken to Mr. Carter's barn ?
Mr. Lattimore. To the best of my knowledge, I never saw any of
them.
Senator O'Conor. All right, Mr. Lattimore, would you proceed. It
would appear that a natural break would occur at page 24, so will you
continue until that point? It would move things along.
Senator Smith. Before we leave that, on page 18, where you describe
what your hunch was, that you wanted to keep behind the official
Chinese Communist position far enough not to be covered by the same
label, you meant by that that you did not want this group to be known
as associates of the Soviet Communists?
Mr. LvTTiMORE. No; I meant that I didn't think that independent
investigation should be conducted in the way that would enable any-
body to say that any outside influence was directed.
Senator" Smith. And then you cautioned "far enough not to be cov-
ered by the same label."
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Smith. Did you think it would be detrimental to the organ-
ization to have the Soviet label placed on its activities at that time?
]Mr. Lattimore. Senator, it is very difficult for me to say in 1952
exactly what I had in mind in 1938, in writing an obviously hasty and
informal letter.
Senator Smith. I can quite appreciate that.
Mr. Lattimore. I can say that the best of my recollection at that
attitude on questions in China — this was after the all-out Japanese
attack on China had begun — my feeling at that time was that the more
liberal representatives of the Chinese Kuomintang and other Chinese
2996 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
who were not members of any party had a great opportunity at that
time to carry on reforms along with the war, that would put the whole
question of the modernization and postwar, wartime, and postwar
development, of China on a footing of progress in a democratic direc-
tion, and not allow these very simple and necessary reforms in China
to be captured by the Communists or have the Communists claim that
they dominated the whole business.
Senator Smith. Mr. Lattimore, I asked you what I thought was a
very simple question in its form, and I think the answer would be
simple.
I asked you whether or not at that time, when you were referring
to this same label, you regarded that it would be detrimental to this
group to have the Communist label placed on them?
Mr. Lattimore. Again; with all of the reservations that are neces-
sary in trying to think up exactly what I meant in 1938, 14 years ago,
I would say that my feeling was probably quite as much about the
nature of the problem in China as it was about the nature of the prob-
lem lying before the IPR.
Senator Smith. I was not asking about the problem. I was asking
you the one simple question : Did you at that time regard the Soviet
label as detrimental?
Mr. Lattimore. I should have regarded any approach to a monopoly
to the labels of progress, reform, democracy, and so forth, by the Com-
munists in China was highly detrimental.
Senator Smith. I was asking about the Soviet label which you
apparently are referring to here. You cautioned them to keep far
enough not to be covered by the same label. But enough ahead of the
active Chinese liberals to be noticeable.
Now did you not mean by that that you did not want the Soviet
label to be put on in the first instance, and yet you wanted them far
enough ahead of the Chinese liberals so that it would be noticeable
that you were not going along with the Chinese liberals?
Mr. Lattimore. I think I made it fairly clear that what I wanted
to do was to spur on and encourage, if possible, the leadership of neces-
sary reforms in China by the non- Communist Chinese. And again,
speaking after 14 years, my supposition would be that what I was
referring to was not to let the Communists put their label on reforms,
and not a question of just the general public thinking that this is
Communist.
Senator Smith. Further down on page 18, you also wrote :
for the U. S. S. R.—
and you mean by that Soviet Russia ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Smith (continuing) :
Back their international policy in general, but without using their slogans and,
above all, without giving them or anybody else an impression of subservience.
In other words, you were suggesting that they follow the interna-
tional policy of the Soviets, were you not?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes. I was speaking then in the context of the fact
that this was the most cooperative and internationalist period of
Soviet foreign policy, when I think most people accepted the idea that
the Soviet line at that time, which was the indivisibility of peace and
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2997
SO on, was in good faith. And I thought, and so did many people in
this country and in Europe, that this was a good kind of policy to
follow.
But I certainly did not want — I would not do it myself, and I would
not want any organization with which I was connected — to encourage
the Russians to think that we had no minds of our own and were
letting them make up our minds.
Senator Smith. Why were you counseling Mr. Carter to back their
international policy in general?
JMr. Lattimore. The policy at that time was a policy of resistance
to aggression, both in Europe and in Asia. And if that had been at
the time the over-all policy of Britain or of France, I would have
said back their policy.
Senator Smith. I said back their international policy, Russia's
policy, in general.
Mr. Latti]more. That policy at that time, as of the late 1930's, was,
in my opinion, a very good policy of united international resistance to
aggression. I approved it when the Russians followed that policy
just as I disapprove of it, of the Russians, now when they are guilty
of aggression.
Senator Smith. That was not their international policy in general,
was it?
Mr. Lattimore. In 1938 ; yes.
Senator Smith. Were they not still pursuing the Communist pol-
icy then ?
Mr. Lattimore. In 1938 they were pursuing a policy of maximum
cooperation with the then League of Nations, with Britain and,
France, and so on.
Senator Smith. Yet their general international policy was Commu-
nist, was it not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, you are going into questions of what
people knew or thought about Soviet Russia in the i930's from the
point of view of what we know and think ahSit Russia in the 1950's.
I do not claim that in the 1930's I knew as much about the character
of Russian or Communist policy as I think I know now.
I have this feeling of the possibility of cooperation with Russia
is not one that is peculiar to me. It lasted well after the 1930's. As
late as 1942, General MacArthur said "The hopes of civilization rest
on the worthy shoulders of the courageous Russian Army."
In 1943, the New York Times
Senator Smith. He did not say anything about the political policy
of Russia, did he? He is talking about the army. He is talking
about the fighting qualities of the army, is he not ?
Mr. Lattimore. I should have said that in 1942 a major part of the
Russian policy was expressed in the actions of its army. But I may
be mistaken.
In 1943, the New York Times, in an editorial, wrote: "We can do
business with Stalin, and that business will help our political rela-
tions with the Russians. A tenth of the human beings of the world
are on the way to higher living standards in Russia."
In 1946, in' the Catholic Quarterly, the Reverend George H. Dunne
wrote : "If Europe moves all the way to communism, it will not be be-
cause of Russian intervention but because of the obstructionist tactics
of die-hard reactionaries."
2998 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
In 1942, tlie Chicago Tribune wrote-
Senator Smith. jSone of those people wrote such letters as you did
here to Mr. Carter ; did they ? I am asking what you said, what you
meant, not what the New York Times said or what anyone else said.
Mr.- Lattimore, Senator, I am merely trying to make a little bit
plainer the fact that I think is fairly plan : That I showed at that time
an optimistic view of the possibility of cooperating with Russia and
with a number of other nations against the kind of aggression that the
Germans, Italians, and Japanese were putting on.
It seems to me a little bit — I don't know quite what the word is,
but perhaps a little bit inconsistent — to demand that I prove that
everybody who felt the same way that I did also wrote to the same
people that I wrote to.
Senator Smith. I was asking you about your language. But if that
is your answer, that is all right. I was asking you about your specific
language which was quoted in that statement.
Senator Ferguson. You indicated that back in the late 1930's and
the early 1940's you did not have knowledge of the Communist in-
filtration; is that not correct?
Mr. Lattimore. That is correct.
Senator Ferguson. Would not this letter that Senator Smith has
just been asking you about, that part, indicate that you did have some
knowledge of the operations of Communist infiltration and Com-
munist tactics ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, Senator ; that is a little bit far-fetched.
Senator Ferguson. You say it would not ?
Mr. Lattimore. I had had experience with the Russian representa-
tives in the IPR, that they were a highly combative bunch, and that
any time there was agreement or even approach to agreement with
the Russians they claimed it was because other people had agreed with
them and not because they had agreed with other people.
The difference between that and political infiltration seems to me to
be fairly obvious. *
Senator Ferguson. You were considered as a student of inter-
national law, of international affairs ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir. In those years I was not considered a
student of either. I have never, in fact, been a student of international
law, and so far as I was a student of international affairs, my primary
qualifications, in 1938, were based on my specialized work in the
Mongol border regions of China.
Senator Ferguson. Then you did not look into the question of
strategy and the tactics of communism ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir ; at that time I didn't.
Senator Ferguson. I show you a report here headed "Under Trojan
horse tactics," what was printed as of 1935 about their tactics. If you
did not know about that, how do you account for no one in the IPR,
which was interested in international law and international politics,
and problems in the Far East?
Mr. Laitimore. I can't answer for other people in the IPR, Senator
Ferguson. All I can say is that as of 1938 I did not regard myself, and
was not regarded by anybody else, as an expert on any kind of
communism.
Senator Ferguson. I ask the research director of the committee to
read that into the record at this place.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 2999
Senator O'Conor. All right.
Mr. FoRTAS. Senator, you will identify it ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes. It is part of the transcript, as I nnder-
stand it, the identification.
Senator O'Conor. Suppose when reading it, you give the identifi-
cation first.
Mr. Mandel. This is a quotation from the House Committee on Un-
American Activities report dated 1939. On page 27 the annual report
reads as follows :
In 1935, the Communists changed their tactics, their strategy and tactics, to
wliut is now Ivnown as the Trojan horse tactics. Georgi Dimitrov in an address to
the Seventh Congress of the Communist International held in Moscow, in August
1935, said: "Comrades, you remember the ancient tale of the capture of Troy?
Troy was inaccessible to the armies attacking her, thanks to her impregnable
walls, and the attacking army, after suffering many sacrifices, was unable to
achieve victory until, with the aid of the famous Trojan horse, it managed to
penetrate to the very heart of the enemy's camp. We revolutionary workers, it
appears to me, should not be shy about using the same tactics."
Printed from the Workers Libi-ary Publishers, New York City, a Communist
publishing house, in reporting the full text of the Dimitrov address to the Com-
munist International, July 25 to August 21, 1935.
]Mr. Lattimore. I don't see what earthly relevance that has to what
we are talking about. But I do think it is a pity tiiat Georgi Dimitrov
didn't go into the question of whether wooden liorses didn't have
wooden horse feathers.
Senator Ferguson. That is your answer to no question.
Mr. Lattimore. That is a comment.
Senator O'Conor. As I have stated before, it would appear to be a
connected statement from pages 19 to 24. If we proceed to read that
uninterruptedly it would be more expeditious. All right, Mr.
Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. The personal damage that has been done to me by
the way in which this subcommittee has allowed malicious testimony to
be stacked against me is probably beyond repair. But much more
important is the damage that has been done to my country, the country
of which I am only one private citizen, and the damage that has been
done to the conduct of the foreign policy of our country.
When China fell to the Chinese Communists, it was a grave set-back
to the interests of this country, an unmitigated tragedy. This particu-
lar outcome of the Second World War, the establislmient of a Com-
munist government in China, was the result of complex causes. Some
of these causes go far back in history. Some were the results of the
changing balance of power produced by the Second World War. Some
were due to the decay and internal corruption of the previous govern-
ment of China.
I have been, to the best of my ability, a careful student of the causes,
course, and outcome of this great contemporary catastrophe. I be-
lieve that in part it could be foreseen and was in fact foreseen by
various individuals. I believe that, with the advantage of hindsight,
!'. number of mistakes can be pointed out in the handling of the Amer-
ican policy tliat attempted, at various stages, to forestall, to avoid, and
finally to mitigate this catastrophe.
It would be useful to analvze these mistakes of the past, as a ffuide
to the future, but it certainly serves no patriotic purpose to chstort
mistakes, or, more accurately, lack of success, as if they were signs of
3000 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
guilt. The attribution of personal guilt for the mere purpose of pro-
viding political scapegoats is not civilized or democratic behavior,
hoAvever widespread it may be among primitive groups of men.
But what 1 emphatically do not believe is that the catastrophe was
brought about by the treachery or incompetence of those entrusted with
our foreign policy. By and large, I believe that our China policy was
handled not only loyally but as competently as could have been reason-
ably expected, considering the many forces and circumstances in the
situation that were beyond our control.
I believe that it is as important to the welfare and safety of this
coutnry to have a strong State Department and an able Foreign Serv-
ice in our di])lomacy as it is to have effective military forces. I believe
that the usefulness of our Foreign Service personnel has already been
jeopardized by the work of this committee — both directly by attacks on
irreplaceable personnel, and indirectly by impairing the coufidence of
the Nation and our foreign allies in our State Department and by in-
stituting a reign of terror among our Foreign Service personnel.
First, as to the direct injury: It is a fact that almost all the few
men Avith outstanding experience and knowledge of China have al-
ready' eitiier been eliminated from the De]:>artment of State or are
W'orkino- in other parts of the world, in the hope of keeping them out
of the line of fire of a bitterly partisan political fight and out of range
of tlie venom of men who are determined to find evil where none
exists.
Senator O'Conoe. The parties will kindly desist from any display
of approval or disapproval Avhile the hearing is in progress, please.
Mr. Lattimore. The three outstanding
Senator O'Conor. Would it be desirable to take a recess at this
point?
]Mr. Lattimore. If I may.
Senator O'Conor. We will take a recess for 5 minutes.
(A brief recess was here taken.)
Senator O'Conor. The hearing will please be in order.
All right, Mr. Witness, will you proceed ?
Mr. Lattimore. The three outstanding examples of men sacrificed
to the hj'steria that has been wdiipped up in this countt.'y by the China
lobby — a hysteria to which this committee, I am sorry to say, is con-
tributing— are John Stewart Service, O. Edmund Clubb, and John
Carter Vincent. Any one of these men would have been capable of
holding, in our far-eastern policy, the kind of respected position that
is held with regard to Russian policy by George Kennan ; but where
are they now ?
John Stewart Service, an exceptionally able career diplomat, after
being cleared six times by the State Department Loyalty Security
Board— and I believe I am in error there ; I believe it is more than
six times — and after a careful statement that he was not guilty of dis-
loyalty, has been summarily dismissed for "reasonable doubt" of dis-
loyalty, under a new ruling.
Senator Ferguson. Is that not a Presidential order, and is that not
the v'ording of it?
ISIr. Lattimore. As to "reasonable doubt" ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes. I have not made it specific in my statement
here, but the thought in my mind in referring to this is that whoever
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3001
is responsible for this ruling, it constitutes a new ruling on past cases
which has been given retroactive force and conveys to some members
of the public, of whom I am one, a flavor of cruel and unusual punish-
ment, the pursuit of a man until you have completely failed to get him
under existing rules, and then saying, "All right, we will get him;
we will make a new rule."
Senator Fi<:rguson. Well, the President made the rule; did he not?
It is his Presidential order.
Mr. Lattimore. I am not informed in detail on that, Senator. I
should consider it a part of the general disastrous and pusillaijimous
retreat of the State Department under the bludgeoning to which it has
been subjected. I regret it, but I consider it a fact.
Senator FERGUS0?>r. You charge the State Department with cruel
and unusual punishment ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir ; I don't.
Senator Ferguson". Well, is that not just exactly what you said?
Mr. Lattimore. Is the Loyalty Review Board a part of the State
Department?
Senator Ferguson. No ; it is part of the executive branch. And you
said it was because the State Department had been cowed or blud-
geoned.
Mr. Latitmore. I am not an expert, Senator, on the structure of the
Federal Government. Perhaps I should have informed myself more
carefully on this, particularly as I am vitally concerned about it.
Senator Ferguson. You are trying to give this committee some ad-
vice and opinion, and I would have thought you would have sought
accurate information before you would swear to it, that we would
rely upon it.
Mr. Lattimore. I have certainly tried to give this committee my
opinion. If I had thought that this committee was susceptible to
advice, perhaps I might have thought out my terminology more care-
fully in that context.
Senator Smith. Mr. Lattimore, of course, you know what we want
is not just opinion advice. We want facts. Now, I will ask you —
and I think perhaps I can clear this up and I can understand how you
may not be familiar — you say here "cleared six times by the State
Department Loyalty Security Board."
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Smith. That is a board, as I understand, composed of State
Department employee officers or employees. Now, I did not under-
stand you referred to the President's Loyalty Board, which is the over-
all Board, which is a review board. "Which are you referring to in this
language ?
Mr. Laitimore. I believe I am correct in saying that his summary
dismissal by the State Department was mandatory immediately upon
the rendering of the verdict of the Loyalty Review Board.
Senator Smith. That is the over-all Board. So that what you say
here was with reference to the State Department Board itself?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I am referring to the general
Senator Smith. The over-all Loyalty Board, the President's Loyal-
ty Review Board ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, it was responsible.
Senator Smith. You understand that each department has a loyalty
board, and then there is the President's Loyalt}^ Review Board which
3002 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
hears appeals from tliese different departments, which among others
is the State Department? I am just trying to get it clear which you
had reference to.
Senator Ferguson. Did you read the opinion by the Review Board,
Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I read it at the time.
Senator Smith. And did you find any evidence in that opinion that
they were of the opinion that Mr. Service had or had not given some
secret papers or documents to Amerasia ?
Mr, Lattimore. I remember that their conclusion, which I have
quoted here, was that he was not guilty of disloyalty.
Senator Smith. Well, do you remember the other, that they had
found as a matter of fact that he had delivered secret documents to
any member of the Amerasia ?
Mr. Lattimore. My recollec tion of that differs from yours, Senator.
Senator Smith. I am asking you, and I am not making a statement.
Mr. Lattimore. My recollection is that he had in his possession
only declassified papers.
Senator Smith. Did they not mention that he had given papers
to Amerasia ?
Mr. Lattimore. If your information is better than mine, I will
accept it. Wliat I remember is the conclusion of the Loyalty Re-
view Board that he was not disloyal.
Senator Ferguson. Did they find that under the rule that the Pres-
ident had laid down, that there was reasonable doubt of his disloyaltj^,
and therefore he should be discharged ?
Mr. Lattimore. They found, they very carefully stated, that he
was not disloyal, and then they said that they felt entitled to consider
him as — what is it
Senator Smith. A bad security risk ?
Mr. Lattimore. No. Something about reasonable doubt of loyalty.
Senator Ferguson. Then you are placing
Mr. Lattimore. It seems to me a shotgun sort of rule, under which
to try to run a government.
Senator Ferguson. Well, then, your criticism is of the Presidential
order, on that statement ; is that right ?
Mr. Lattimore. In this connection, my criticism is of the entire
policy of the executive branch, which I think has been brought about
by a disastrous attempt to appease the China lobby and others attack-
ing the foreign policy of this country.
Senator O'Conor. All right, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. O. Edmund Clubb, a political observer and re-
porter of outstanding conscientiousness and ability, with a unique
experience combining China, central Asia, and Russia, was publicly
suspended for 7 months, without pay and on the flimsiest of charges,
while his loyalty was being investigated. After finally being vindi-
cated and reinstated, he has resigned. He has taken to heart the now
obvious lesson that the State Department is not a safe place for a man
who has been cleared.
Senator Forguson. Mr. Lattimore, did you know what the charges
against Mr. Clubb were?
]Mr. Lattimore. As far as they appeared in the press, I had a gen-
eral knowledge of them, and I considered them extremely flimsy and
I have so stated here.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3003
Senator Ferguson. Could you repeat any of them ?
Mr. Lattimoke. One was about going to the New Masses, visiting
the New Masses ; and another one was about knowing the late Agnes
Smedley.
Senator Ferguson. Any others ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I can recall offhand.
Senator Ferguson. And you describe them as "the flimsiest of
charges ?
Mr. Lattimore. I consider those to be extremely flimsy charges for
questioning the loyalty of a State Department man who, as a servant
of the State Department endeavoring to quahfy himself by knowledge
of factors important in foreign policy, should be able to consider it a
duty to know, converse with, and have discussions with people of the
most varied kind.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever have any discussion or talk with
Mr. Service after his discharge ?
Mr. Lattimore. Since his discharge, I haven't seen him, I don't
tliink.
Senator Ferguson. While matters were pending?
Mr. Lattimore. I have seen him occasionally ; yes, sir.
Senator Ferguson. Did you talk over what the charges were ?
Mr. Lattuniore. In a general way ; yes. I did not ask for his con-
fidence, and my purpose in seeing him was to show that as a friend
of his, I was not going to be scared off.
Senator Ferguson. Well, I assume that you were not a witness for
Mr. Service?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I was not a witness.
Senator Ferguson. Or Mr. Clubb or Mr. Vincent ?
Mr. Lattimore. Or Mr. Clubb or Mr. Vincent.
John Carter Vincent, a man of ambassadorial seniority, has for
several years been removed from work in the area of his unique spe-
cialty— the Far East — and has been assigned to North Africa, be-
cause, in the prevailing temper of the times, the administration dares
not return him to work where he belongs and is needed.
Senator Jenner. Mr. Lattimore, you have named three men here
whom you think have been unfairly treated ; that is, John Stewart
Service, O. Edmund Clubb, and John Carter Vincent.
Mr. Lattimore. May I modify one word there, Senator? I think
"scandalously" would be better than ''unfairly."
Senator Jenner. I will accept your word.
Now, going back to another period in history in the Far East, would
you be kind enough to tell this committee what you thought of the
way Joseph Grew was treated ?
Mr. Lattimore. I know very little, indeed, about the resignation
of Mr. Grew, and I couldn't tell you olfhand by whom he was replaced.
Senator Jenner. Do you know anything about Stanley Hornbeck,
what happened to him, and why ?
Mr. Lattisiore. I have known Stanley Hornbeck for many years.
Senator Jenner. Would you tell the conrmittee about his career in
the Far East, and what happened to it, and why ?
Mr. Lattimore. I understood that he served the last assignment as
Ambassador to the Netherlands, and then retired in the ordinary
course.
Senator Jenner. And Mr. Dooman ?
3004 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I know very slightly.
Senator Jenner. Could you tell us anything about his career?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know anything about his career.
Senator Jenner. Or Patrick Hurley, or his experience in the Far
East?
Mr. Lattimore. I know what I have read in the press.
Senator Jenner. Lieutenant General Wedemeyer ?
Mr. Lattimore. I know what I have heard in the press.
Senator Jenner. Adolph Berle ? _
Mr. Lattimore. Practically nothing.
Senator Jenner. Is it not a fact that these men, too, were either
removed from ofSce or assigned to diplomatic posts or military posts
of no importance because they did not go along with the policy of the
State Department in the Far East ? Is that not true ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know about the details of reassignment or
retirement of any of these men, Senator.
Senator Jenner. Well, you have made a reference here about
"attacks on irreplaceable personnel." Now, these men that I have
named were all rej^laced, and do you know who replaced them ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, can you inform nie whether any of the
men that you have just mentioned were ever pilloried for months on
end in the press as Communists, or Communist stooges, or agents of
the policy of a foreign
Senator Jenner. No. As a matter of fact, they were just the oppo-
site. They were anti- Communist, and then walked the plank be-
cause they were, and that is what I am trying to get at. You are
supposed to be an expert on this situation, and I assumed that you
knew about all of these facts.
Now, would you tell me what you mean by "irreplaceable personnel,"
"both directly by attacks on irreplaceable personnel"?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that personnel like Vincent, Service, and
Clubb are very difficult to replace.
Senator Jenner. Would you say that Joseph Grew and Stanley
Hornbeck and Adolph Berle and Patrick Hurley and Lt. Gen. Albert
Wedemeyer would be hard to replace ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know enough about the details of their
qualifications to have an opinion. Senator.
Senator Jenner. Well, I think another thing should be brought
out here, Mr. Chairman, this question of reasonable doubt, this new
rule that the witness says he does not care for.
Reasonable doubt; "has been summarily dismissed for 'reason-
able doubt' of disloyalty, under a new ruling."
Are you. trying to tell this committee that if there is a reasonable
doubt about a man being loyal to this country, that he should remain
in the office of public trust and handling secret papers, and so forth ?
If there is a reasonable doubt about it, do you believe he should be
retained in that kind of a position ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I believe that the question of loyalty in
our Government service is of paramount importance.
Senator Jenner. I noticed you stated that.
Mr. Lattimore. It is of such importance that I think it should be
handled strictly on grounds of proof or disproof; that vague words
like "reasonable doubt," which may mean one thing to one man and
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3005
something else to somebody else, are not the words of a ruling under
which a high morale can be maintained in the Department.
May I read, Senator, something of what I mean here, and it is an
editorial from the American Foreign Service Journal of August 1951.
This generally represents the point of view of the Foreign Service
men in the Department of State. I quote :
Another direct cost of this baiting is the toll it takes among members of the
coming generation, who have talents and capabilities to contribute in the future
formulation of a wise foreign policy for our country, but who are frightened
away by the sort of hatchet work which seems on the way to becoming accepted
as commonplace. In 1949, there were 1,128 candidates who took the foreign
service examination ; and in 1950, candidates numbered 807. This year —
that is, 1951—
despite extra solicitation, only 760. The draft, competitive job opportunities
in a booming economy, and administrative problems of enlarging the service
were partly responsible. Nevertheless, this change, which was made the subject
of methodical inquiry, clearly demonstrated that regardless of interest in or
qualification for the field of foreign affairs, young people simply do not see any
valid reason why they they should put their persons, careers, and reputations in
potential jeopardy by joining the State Department.
Mr. SouKWiNE. Do you know who wrote that?
Mr. Lattimore. I have "no idea.
Mr. SoLTRwiNE. Do you know John K. Emerson is one of the editors
of the publication from which you have just read ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I didn't know that.
Mi\ SouRwiNE. Do you think that he might have written that
article ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no idea.
Senator Ferguson. Could I inquire whether it is a State Depart-
ment magazine?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know what its connection with the State
Department is.
Senator Ferguson. Could I see it?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe it is generally considered the fraternity
journal of the Foreign Service of the United States.
Senator Ferguson. You do not know at what expense it is being
published ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't.
Senator Ferguson. Or at whose expense?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Jenner. I come back to this same question, and I do not
know whether the witness answered it or not : You deplore these men
being attacked and you call them irreplaceable men, and I am going
to ask you if a man was anti-Communist, such as Joseph Grew, Stan-
ley Hornbeck, Mr. Dooman, Patrick Hurley, Lieutenant General
Wedemeyer, you would also abhor replacing those irreplaceable men,
too, would you not, because they were anti-Communists?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I have no idea of the grounds upon which
any of those men resigned or were replaced.
Senator Jenner. You are not acquainted with these men and their
careers and their position on the Far East and you are a far-eastern
expert ?
Mr. Lattimore. Some of them I have met very slightly, and you
have mentioned several who are concerned primarily with Japan,
which is not my field of specialization, and the assertion that they
88348— 52— pt. 9—^8
3006 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
■were fired because they were anti-Communists is your assertion, Sena-
tor, and I never knew that before.
Senator Jenner. All right.
Senator Smith. Mr. Lattimore, it is a fact that at the time Mr.
Grew and at least some of these other men were fired, we did not have
the same situation in the Far East with respect to the Communists
being in dominant control that we have today ?
Mr. Lattimore. I presume you are right. This was some years ago,
wasn't it?
Senator Smith. Yes. So that since these men who were known as
anti-Communists were relieved of their duties and their positions com-
munism has made great advances in the Far East ?
Senator Jenner. That is why they were removed.
Senator Smith. I am just asking for the facts.
Mr. Lattimore. Is your argument. Senator, a post hoc, ergo propter
hoc?
Senator Smith. I believe you said you did not want to indulge
in legal or technical language, so I am asking you in plain language
if, after these men were removed, it is not a fact that there have been
great advances by communism in the Far East?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes. Of course, the advances of communism since
the death of Julius Caesar have been even greater.
Senator Smith. And that is the relation that j^ou think, or the
attitude that you think you ought to have in discussing a current
matter ?
Senator Ferguson. Could we have an answer, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Lattimore. I confess. Senator, I see no connection between the
points you are making.
Senator Smith. But the fact remains the same, that we did have a
great many millions of friends who were anti-Communist in the Far
East, but sometime after these men, as Senator Jenner refeiTed to,
were released, then some kind of influence got in there by which today
we do not have the same number of friends and that section of the
world has gone Communist ; and you say that there is no connection,
in your opinion ?
Mr. Lattimore. A large part of the Far East has gone Communist.
I don't know exactly how to take your expression that we had many
millions of friends there. A question would arise there of how far
they were actually friends, and how far they might have become
friends or stronger friends under a different policy, and the question
of whether they were merely sitting on the sidelines and waiting for
things to happen, and so forth.
Senator Smith. There was a change in our policy in the Far East,
was there not, after Mr. Grew and these others who have been men-
tioned were relieved of their duties ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am not sure that I could point to any change in
our policy. Senator, that could be accurately coordinated with the
service of these particular men.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know Mr. Davies when he was in the
Far East, John K. Davies?
Mr. Lattimore. John P. Davies, and I knew him, not very well,
but I knew him.
Senator Ferguson. You have not used his name here. Is there any
reason ? You have named three, but you did not name Mr. Davies.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3007
Mr. Lattimore. I named these three particularly because I know
them better, but I would include Mr. Davies among those who have
been sent to hide out in non-far eastern countries by the State De-
partment, presumably hoping they will be there safe from snipers.
Senator Ferguson. Did you hear the testimony of Mr. Munson, a
former CIA agent?
Mr. Lait^imore. Xo, I didn't.
Senator Ferguson. And you do not know what the testimony might
be in the hearing here about Mr. Davies ?
Mr. Lattimore. I saw some reference to it in the newspapers, but
that part of the transcript of this committee's proceedings had not
become available when this was written.
Senator Ferguson. Did you read it in the newspapers?
Mr. Lattimore. I read it in the newspapers.
Senator Ferguson. And after reading that, would you say that you
would still include him as one of these persons ?
Mr. Lattimore. I also read a statement •
Senator Ferguson. Answer my question.
Mr. Lattimore. Excuse me; I am answering it. Senator. I also
read a statement in the newspapers from Mr. Davies, something to
the effect that the whole matter had been taken up previously and
cleared in the hearings, or something of that sort.
Senator Ferguson. And then you placed your reliance on his state-
ment, and not on what the CIA man had testified to under oath ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am in no position to place my reliance on either
statement. Senator.
Senator Ferguson. But you are including him now as one of those
that you think have been unjustly discharged ?
Mr. Lattimore. The accusations had not been made when Mr.
Davies was sent to Germany, or when I wrote this statement.
Senator Ferguson. I am asking you as of today.
Mr. Lattimore. As of today, I have no opinion.
Senator Jenner. Referring to your statement here :
But much more important is the damage that has been done to my country,
the country of which I am only one private citizen, and the damage that has
been done to the conduct of the foreign policy of our country.
Now, I will ask you, could you possibly conjure a set of facts where
our foreign policy could have been more mishandled, from Yalta down
to the present time, in the Far East? You are a student of this, sir,
and it is a fact that at Yalta we gave Manchuria to Russia and the
northern half of Korea, and the Sakhalin and Kurile Islands; and
it is the fact that we sent General Marshall to China with the specific
mission to force Chiang Kai-shek to take the Coimnunists into his
government and into his army and to have a united-front government ;
and it is the fact that when AVorld War II ended, there was only about
175 million Communists. And as a result of Yalta, and confirmed
at Potsdam, and the Marshall mission, and the replacing of these
loyal Americans who were anti-Communists in the Far East with men
who were following, I will say, at least the pro-Communist line, could
you think of any more damage that your country has suffered than
that? [
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I am afraid that I can agree with hardly
a word that you have said.
3008 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Jenner. You think our policy in the Far East has been
successful ?
Mr. Latttmore. I think that our policy, or I think that our interests
in the Far East have suffered extremely serious setbacks, and I do not
believe that those setbacks were a consequence of our policy.
Senator Jenner. That was our policy, was it not : Yalta, the Mar-
shall mission, replacing these men who were fighting the Communists?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, you have made a chracterization of Yalta
and of General Marshall's mission with which, I am sorry, but I don't
agree.
Senator Jenner. I think that that is the whole crux of it. That
has been our policy ; and if it has been successful, you think it has
been successful. Certainly I do not think it has been successful.
Mr. Lattimore. I should like to read you the words. Senator, of
somebody who has expressed this problem better than I
Senator Jenner. I do not care to hear someone else's words. I
want your words on it, and you stated that the policy has been suc-
cessful.
Senator O'Conor. I think we can settle this very well.
Senator Jenner. He has answered my question, and I do not care
for a dissertation on the speech
Senator O'Conor. If Mr. Lattimore wishes to adopt the language
used by someone else, it is perfectly permissible for him to read it.
Senator Jenner. He said he thought it had been a successful policy.
Senator O'Conor. I thought he wanted to elaborate on it.
Mr. Lattimore. I want the reporter to read back and see if I said
anywhere that we had a successful policy.
Senator Smith. Did you say that, or not ?
]Mr. Lattimore. Certainly not.
Senator O'Conor. I did understand that you wished to elaborate
somewhat.
Mr. Lattimore. This is from Mr. George F. Keenan, our newly
appointed and confirmed Ambassador to Russia, in his recent book,
American Democracy — 1900-50 :
It is similarly incorrect to portray the Yalta Agreement as a terrible betrayal
of Nationalist China. The agreement was that we should recommend certain
things to the Chinese Government. The leaders of that Government were not
averse to these things at the time. They had asked us long before Yalta to
help them to arrange their affairs with the Soviet Government. They later
expressed themselves as well satisfied with what we had done. And in the
subsequent negotiations, which they themselves conducted independently with
the Russians, and which actually constituted the controlling arrangement for
the future of Manchuria, they went in some respects further in the way of
concessions to the Soviet Union than anything that had been agreed upon at
Yalta and recommended to them by us. They did this despite the fact that
they were warned by us that in doing so they were acting on their own responsi-
bility and not at our recommendation.
I should like to add a point, and this I quote from the Reporter
magazine, the issue of February 19, 1952 :
"In the treaty"—
and this is the treaty between the Chinese and Russia direct —
"the Chinese Nationalists, who seemed eager to coiirt Soviet freindship" —
and this is the Chinese Nationalists who were eager to court Soviet
friendship —
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3009
"made concession which went beyond the provisions of the Yalta Agreement,
and were prevented from going even further only by the persuasion of Averell
Harriman, who was then United States Ambassador to the Soviet Union. Am-
bassador Pat Hurley reported that Chiang Kai-shek was generally satisfied
with the treaty, and thanked me" —
that is, thanked General Hurley —
"for the basis that I had helped him to lay for reapproachment with the Soviets."
Madam Chiang, then in the United States, called on President Truman to
compliment him on the result of the conversations between the Nationalists and
the Soviet representatives, and thank him for the United States help in bring-
ing them about.
Life magazine as of that time, which seems to have changed its mind,
hailed the treaty as "as great a victory for common sense as the defeat of Japan
was for armed might" and indicated that it was "a vindication of American
policy in Asia for almost 50 years."
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you know who wrote that, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore (reading) :
It forecast a warm brotherly collaboration between Chiang and Mao Tze-tung.
Frome Life magazine : "Peace, lively but genuine peace," they cried,
"is therefore the outlook."
Senator Jenner. Do you know who wrote that ?
Mr. Lati^imore. No, I don't.
Senator Ferguson. Are you adopting it ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am adopting it as far as it is an accurate quota-
tion of the people who are quoted, the
Senator Ferguson. Are you adopting it as being the correct view ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am adopting it insofar as it may quote correctly
from the people from whom it quotes.
Senator Ferguson. That is not answering my question at all.
Mr. Lattimore. That is as far as I can answer it.
Senator Ferguson. You can answer my question.
Mr. Fortas. I think if you will clarify what you mean by "adop-
tion"
Senator Ferguson. Are you adopting it as your testimony, or are
you only quoting somebody else ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am quoting from original sources which have
been cited in a secondarj^ source, which I have not yet had time to
verify or check. If the quotations are accurate, I am willing to
present it as my testimony that they are accurate.
Senator Ferguson. Well, I am not asking you that. That was not
my question at all. Do you agree with what is said in the articles
or the matter that you have just read ?
Mr. Lattimore. I agree that that was said.
Senator Ferguson. I did not ask you that.
Mr. Lattimore. At the time it was said.
Senator Ferguson. I did not ask you that, whether you agreed it
was said. I asked you whether you agreed with it.
Mr. Lattimore. I can't agree, or automatically agree, on the cor-
rectness in 1952 of things that were said in 1949.
Senator Ferguson. Why did you put it in the record ?
Mr. Lattimore. Because the Senator here had made a statement
implying that everything that had been done in American foreign
policy in those years was the work of American traitors.
3010 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Ferguson. He did not indicate and ask you to bring out
evidence of what somebodj' else said, did he ? He was asking for your
opinion.
Mr. Lattimore. My impression is, Senator, that he was making a
rhetorical statement, at the end of which he asked for my agreement,
yes.
Senator Ferguson. Yes; your agreement, and not someone else's
agreement.
Mr. Lattimore. I told him I couldn't agree, and then I produced
this evidence from the period as an indication of why I couldn't agree.
Senator Jenner. Could we get the record straight? It started like
this : I was reading from the statement of Professor Lattimore —
But much more important is the damage that has been done to my country,
the country of which I am only one private citizen, and the damage that has been
done to the conduct of the foreign policy of our country.
And I asked the witness if he could think of any greater damage that
could be brought about as a result of our policy, and that is how the
question started.
Mr. Lattimore. That is where we disagree, you see. I don't think
it was brought about by our policy.
Senator Jenner. That is all I want. That was an answer to my
question.
Mr. Lattimore. You are entitled to your opinion.
Senator Jenner. You are quoting people, and you do not know who
they are, and you referred to a treaty in this quotation that you just
read, and that was the treaty between China and Russia?
JVIr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
Senator Jenner. When was that treaty entered into ?
Mr. Lattimore. Let me see, the Yalta agreement was in February
of 1945, and was followed within a few months, I think, by a direct
Chinese Nationalist Treaty with Russia.
Senator Jenner. In other words, the treaty you are reading from
followed the Yalta agreement. Now I will ask you : Was Chiang Kai-
shek or the Chinese Government represented at the Yalta agreement ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Jenner. And if you were the leader of a country and you
had been "sold down the river," would you not begin fighting for your
life, and do you suppose that had anything to do with this treaty that
you have been reading about, as to which you do not know who
wrote it?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I have just quoted from George Keenan,
who was in the State Department
Senator Jenner. I remember that.
Mr. Lattimore. Handling these affaiis, Avhich I was not, and there-
fore better informed on the subjects than I am, stating presumabl}^ as
authoritatively as it can be stated that before Yalta, Chiang Kai-shek
had asked us to undertake these conversations.
Senator Jenner. Was Chiang consulted about Yalta and the agree-
ments reached at Yalta?
Mr. Larrimore. ]\Iy understanding is that Chiang asked us to under-
take discussions with the Russians, which led up to what was decided
at Yalta.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3011
Senator Jenner. And he was not at Yalta, and lie was not consulted
about the future interests of his country, and he was one of our allies,
was he not. Professor ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, the evidence that I have just read is a
clear indication that he was not only consulted, but that he was con-
sulted at his own initiative, and consulted before Yalta.
Senator Smith. Was there not a refusal to him to have him present
at Yalta?
Mr. Lattimore. My memory of that. Senator, is somewhat hazy,
and T think it could be looked "up in the white book that there was an
agreement between the Americans and the British before going to
Yalta, not involving the Eussians at all but an American-British agree-
ment, that in view of the proved leaking security of Chungking,
where top secrets were steadily being reported to the Japanese, it was
unadvisable to have a Chinese Nationalist representative at a confer-
ence where we hoped, as the outcome, to get the consent of Russia to
enter the far eastern war against Japan, because if that had leaked
to Japan through Chungking, it would have been a disaster.
Senator Jexxer. And at that time, that particular time, is it not
correct that the military leaders were telling us that Japan was a
defeated nation ; and that we entered into an agreement with Eussia,
unbeknownst to Chiang Kai-shek, to equip an army, a Siberian Rus-
sian Army of 1,250,000 Russian soldiers, to fight with us 6 days in a
war against Japan? Is tliat correct, sir?
Mr, Lattimore. I don't believe it is, Senator.
Senator Jexner. All right.
]Mr. Lattimore. I believe the record shows that the pressure at
Yalta to accept anything that the Russians might demand as a condi-
tion for entering the war against Japan, came primarily from the
armed services.
Senator Smith. Well, there were efforts made by at least someone in
the American forces to keep the Yalta agreement from being entered
into, with respect to Eussia coming to war for that short f)eriod of
time ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe 1 have read something about an effort on
the part of some group within the Armed Forces to change that
decision.
Senator Smith. Was INIr. Keenan there?
Mr. Lattimore. At Yalta ? I believe he was, but I am not sure.
Senator Smith. Who was the main man representing the State De-
partment at Yalta? Was it not Mr. x\lger Hiss?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir, I believe Mr. Hiss had a rather subordinate
position at Yalta, and if Mr. Keenan was there he certainly far out-
ranked Hiss.
Senator Smith. But you do not know whether Keenan was there,
and you do not know if he was there ?
MV. Lattimore. No. Let me see, I think Stettinius was there.
Senator Smith. But Hiss was the confidential man dealing with
Stettinius and the President at Yalta ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know how confidential the position held by
Hiss was. Senator Smith. My understanding is that at that time his
position in the Department of State was rather low.
Senator Smith. Well, there is no doubt but what Yalta sealed the
doom of Nationalist China, did it not ?
3012 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I should question that very much, Senator.
Senator Smith. You think it had nothing to do with it ?
Mr. Lattimore. I should say that on the contrary, as far as the
direct effects of Yalta reached, they favored the early entry of Chiang
Kai-shek's troops into Manchuria.
Senator Smith. In any event, after the Yalta Agreement, the Na-
tionalist cause got continuously worse, did it not ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, it didn't get continuously worse, Senator. In
the first period after the surrender of Japan, there was a steadily
increasing expansion of the territory occupied, military power, and
military authority of the Nationalist Government, and the decline
came after that expansion.
Senator Smith. How long after that expansion ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, let me see. I think it began, the decline
began — I am not sure of my memory here, and I would have to look
up the record — but I believe toward the end of 1948, and I do recall
that General Wedemeyer, who has been cited here, attributed the
weakening of the position of Chiang Kai-shek partly to unwise mili-
tary overexpansion, against which Wedemeyer himself advised, but in
vain.
Senator Jenner. You would not agree. Professor, that the decline
of Nationalist China started after General Marshall went over and
we talked with the Communist troops and tried to get them into a
united-front government; and failing that, for the next 15 months
after Marshall returned from his mission we did not give Chiang any
aid, although the money was appropriated for it. And you would not
mark that as the beginning of the decline of Nationalist China?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I would not agree that the decline of
Nationalist China came because of General Marshall's mission.
Senator Jenner. As a result of the mission.
Mr. Lattimore. Or as a result of the mission.
Senator Jenner. All right.
Senator Smith. Did you hear the testimony of Admiral Cooke be-
fore this committee, about how he sat there in command of the United
States naval forces in Chinese waters and saw this disintegration of
the Nationalist forces brought about by the policy that we had then
adopted? I am just asking you if you know about that?
Mr. Lattimore. I read that testimony, and I was struck by the fact
that nobody asked Admiral Cooke whether, in his present activities,
he draws any financial advantage from operations associated with
Chiang Kai-shek.
Senator Smith. What do you mean by that? Do you want to ask
him that question ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe that Admiral Cooke is associated with a
corporation of some kind doing business on Formosa, partly in mili-
tary supplies.
Senator Smith. You think that influences his activities back there,
or his judgment back there ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that it is a question, at least in view of the
kind of questions that have been asked of me before this committee,
that it would have been a proper question to have asked of Admiral
Cooke.
Senator Smith. Is anybody questioning what you are doing now,
and how you are earning your living ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3013
Mr. Lattimore. It seems to me that the entire assault upon me by
this committee or its counsel — and I don't know where the responsi-
bility is distributed — is predicated on a prejudgment that I am a man
of bad faith.
Senator Smith. I was asking you about Admiral Cooke's testimony,
and you read it and you know what he said, do you not ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe that it is a usual procedure, when people
are questioned about problems of this kind, to determine whether they
are or are not interested parties.
Senator Smith. Do you have any doubt as to the patriotism and
loyalty of Admiral Cooke ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have never met Admiral Cooke, and I am merely
saying that a question of that kind would have been proper, in my
opinion.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you think that you are helping your position,
sir, by attacking the honor of Admiral Cooke ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, I am not attacking the honor of
Admiral Cooke. I am making some comments on the procedure of this
committee.
Senator O'Conor. It is very evident that we will not be able to con-
clude, and I thought that we would get to a natural breaking point.
Senator Ferguson. May I just ask one question? Did you know
that Mr, Hiss, Alger Hiss, testified before the Un-American Activities
Committee that he was proud to be closely connected with the Yalta
agreement ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I didn't know that, Senator.
Mr. Sourwine. Before the record closes, Mr. Chairman, I think
this comment should be made at this point : that at the beginning of
Admiral Cooke's testimony, he was asked about liis present connec-
tions, and his present business, and he testified with regard to it.
Senator Smith. I wonder if the witness would like to reiterate his
statement that Admiral Cooke was not asked about it or did not tell us
about it ?
Mr. Lattimore. He was not asked if he drew any financial ad-
vantage from it.
Senator Smith. What do you mean by that? You mean you are
charging Admiral Cooke with converting or embezzling Government
property ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Smith. Just what do you mean by "financial advantage"?
Mr. Lattimore. I am simply raising the question of the value of
showing in discussions of this kind whether a man may or may not
be an interested party in the opinions which he expresses.*^
Mr. Sourwine. May I read the testimony, just a half a page here,
at the outset of Admiral Cooke's testimony ? He was asked :
Will you give your full name and residence to the reporter?
And he said :
Charles Maynard Cooke. My permanent residence is in Sonoma, Calif. The
last 2 years I have been living in Formosa.
Question. What is your present military status, Admiral Cooke?
Answer. I am a retired admiral, United States Navy.
Question. When did you retire from the United States Navy?
Answer. The 1st of May 1498.
Question. Admiral Cooke, will you tell us what your present occupation is?
3014 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Answer. My present occupation is that I have just terminated a tour of serv-
ice as an employee of the Commerce International-China, which has been fur-
nishing technical services to the Chinese in Formosa.
Question. Is that an American corporation, Admiral Cooke?
Answer. Yes.
Question. What was your position with that corporation?
Answer. I occupied a position of coordinator of this group of technicians that
served in Formosa.
Question. Who were those technicians, Admiral Cooke?
Answer. They were some retired officers, some Reserve oflficers, some ex-
officers of the services of the United States, and some enlisted men, too.
Question. They are all United States citizens?
Answer. Yes.
Question. They were all employees of Commerce International-China?
Answer. Yes ; CIC, as it is referred to.
Question. Admiral Cooke, have you ever been in the employ of the Chinese
Government?
Answer. No, sir.
Senator Smith. Now, Dr. Lattimore, you are willing, after your
criticism of the committee, you are willing to sit here and impugn the
motives and blacken the character of a retired naval officer, against
whom you know nothing?
Mr. Lattimore. I am not impugning Admiral Cooke's character.
Senator Smith. What did j^ou mean when you interjected what
you did ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am merely pointing out that when this com-
mittee has before it myself or Mr. Holland, or Mr. Carter, or Mr.
Vincent, the record shows that we are asked the most searching and
probing questions of every kind; and that no witness who has been
brought before this committee making charges of the disloyalty of in-
divicUtals or the incompetence of American foreign policy, has been
asked any questions of an even remotely comparable kind.
I wish to add specifically that I am not impugning the motives or
the character of Admiral Cooke.
Senator Smith. Will you answer this question ? Why did you say
what you did about Admiral Cooke ?
Mr. Lattimore. Because I thought that it was pertinent to the ques-
tion of the procedure of this committee.
Senator Smith. What did that have to do, whether or not Admiral
Cooke had been employed by these other people, what did that have to
do with the procedure before this committee, unless you meant to
impeach him and his character?
Mr. Lattimore. I did not mean to impeach him or his character.
Senator. It is a well-known fact that, I believe, a man's judgment may
be unconsciously affected by the point where his personal interest or
advantage lies.
Mr. 1^'oRTAS. May I respectfully suggest this witness has been on
the stand about 2 hours and 25 minutes, with just a 5-minute break?
Senator O'Conor. I was undertaking to make a comment on that
very point. We have been advised that the Senate is about to vote
on a very important issue. As a matter of fact, tliere may be a series
of votes, and it appears impossible for us to continue at this point.
I was going to ask my colleagues, and of course counsel, as to their
convenience in returning.
May I ask, in view of all of the developments, do you consider that
it would be proper to put in the record the entire statement at this
IXSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3015
time, and consider it as having been submitted and incorporated in
the record in toto?
Mr. FoRTAS. It is Mr. Lattimore's judgment; but since you have
asked me, it seems to me that your ruling allowing him to read seg-
ments of it is a very wise one.
Senator O'Conor. It has not progressed as far as I thought it
might.
Mr. FoRTAs. I think we have made pretty good progress, and if
Mr. Lattimore asked me my opinion, I would suggest that we continue
on that basis; and it is his decision.
Mr. Lattimore. I have already tried to make the suggestion to
you that we should continue on the same basis.
Senator O'Conor. All right. I thought that I would make possible
the introduction of the entire statement, which of course is already
a matter of public knowledge, anyhow, because it has been distributed,
and I thought it might just expedite the questioning. But if you feel
that it is necessary to do it this way, we will do so.
We will recess until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 10 a. m.,
Thursday, February 28, 1952.)
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC EELATIONS
THURSDAY, FEBRUAEY 28, 1952
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate the
Administration of the Internal Security
Act and Other Internal Security Laws,
of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washing,ton, D. G.
The subcommittee met at 10 : 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room
424 of the Senate Office Building, Senator Herbert R. O'Conor, pre-
siding.
Present: Senators McCarran, O'Conor (presiding), Smith, Fergu-
son, Jenner, and Watkins.
Also present: Senator McCarthy; J. G. Sourwine, committee coun-
sel ; and Eobert Morris, subcommittee counsel.
Senator O'Conor. The hearing will please be in order.
We will now resimie the hearing of the witness, Owen Lattimore.
TESTIMONY OP OWEN LATTIMORE ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
ABE FOETAS
Senator O'Conor. It occurs to me, Mr. Lattimore, that you were
on page 21 of your statement, just at the beginning of the fourth para-
graph, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, if I might ask one question, and I
won't interrupt Mr. Lattimore for a while then.
Yesterday, Mr. Lattimore, you quoted at some length from the Re-
porter, a magazine. Do you know whether that magazine has actively
advocated the recognition of Communist China ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I do not.
Senator O'Conor. The paragraph, I think, starts: "Each of these
men * * *."
jNIr. Lattimore. Each of these men is a loss to the State Depart-
ment— and there are few men of the same caliber left. The indirect
damage to the conduct of our diplomacy is even greater. The more
politically controversial our problems of diplomacy are, the more vital
it is that the experts in the State Department should be able to dis-
cuss them fully, frankly, and without fear, and should be free to
consult with academic experts. But we have reached a point of gen-
eral intimidation at which our diplomatic representatives must feel
under great pressure to report back to Washington only what it is
safe to report, and make only those policy recommendations that they
feel sure will not result in political attacks on their careers.
3017
3018 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
I am reminded, Senators, of something that once happened to the
Russians. In 1939 they invaded Finland, sure that they were going
to have a walk-over, but suffered serious military defeats and tre-
mendous damage to their prestige. Does anybody doubt that this was
because political intimidation had made yes-men of the Soviet dip-
lomats reporting to Moscow ? Communist doctrine and the party line
required them to report that the Finns were groaning under bougeois-
capitalist oppression, and would welcome the Russian invaders. They
dared not report the truth, that the Finns were a democratic people,
willing to fight against even the Russian colossus in defense of their
liberties. The consequence was that Russia walked into a booby
trap.
The anger of the American people will be great. Senators, if the
political reporting of the State De])artment degenerates to this point
because of political persecution, intimidation, and the demand that the
China lobby be empowered to lay down a line to the State Department.
"V^Hiat booby traps is the China lobby laying on the road ahead of us?
There are three interpretations that have been made of the records
of the State Department victims of the China lobby :
Senator Ferguson. Would you name the China lobby ?
Mr. Lattimore. The China lobby, Senator, is, I think, something
that has been characterized, in a political rather than legal use of
terminology, as an open conspiracy.
Senator Ferguson. I understood yesterday you did not know what
a "conspiracy" was.
Mr. Lattimore. That is why I said this morning "in political rather
than legal terminology," I don't know what a conspiracy is in legal
terminology.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know what it is politically ?
Mr. Lattimore. The expression "open conspiracy" is one that is
fairly frequent in the writing of political scientists.
Senator Ferguson. What is it? What is an "open conspiracy,"
politically?
Mr, Lattimore. I was just trying to get to that. Senator. An open
conspiracy may be said to exist when people who are leagued together,
not as members of an organization but because they have a common
purpose, do not claim to be a membei'ship organization but openly
state what their objectives are and openly advertise their sympathies
with each other, and quote each other's opinions and works, and so
forth.
Senator Ferguson. Would you give us the common purpose of the
China lobby?
Mr. Lattimore. The common purpose of the China lobby is to make
support of the driftwood government on the beaches of Formosa a
primary objective of American foreign policy, subordinating other
questions of policy to the consideration of all-out aid to Chiang Kai-
shek; the activation of a campaign, based on Formosa, for the re-
covery of the mainland, and so forth.
Senator Ferguson. As I understand it, then, you speak of the Na-
tionalist Government as the "driftwood" government?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that that is a fair circumstantial characteri-
zation, Sonator.
Senator Ferguson, You once worked for Chiang Kai-shek.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3019
Mr. Lattimore. It was not a driftwood government at that time.
I worked for Chiang Kai-shek and I did the best I could for him.
Senator Ferguson, Did you know that the Communist line changed
in July of 1943, and that your magazine carried the change of the
party line, as far as Chiang Kai-shek's government was concerned?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, in the Tydings hearings, it was repeatedly
asserted
The Chairman. The question is: Did you know it? That can be
answered "yes" or "no."
Mr. Lattimore. I know it only by the assertions that were made
before the Tydings committee in 1950. As for the second part of your
question
Senator Ferguson. Did you know that Mr. Bissell, in July of 1943,
in your magazine — I do not think you were editor at that time, were
you?
Mr. Lattimore. I was not editor.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know that the party line changed,- and
that the magazine carried the change of the partj^ line ?
Mr. Lattimore. May I ask for the name of the magazine, Senator?
Senator Ferguson. Pacific Affairs, the one that you had been
editor of.
Mr. Lattimore. Aren't you wrong. Senator, and aren't you re-
ferring
The Chairman. Answer the question. That is not the question.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know Bissell wrote an article in July
of 1943, on the change of tlie party line, as far as Chiang Kai-shek's
government was concerned ?
Mr. Lattimore. If I may make a slight correction, I believe the
gentleman's name is Bisson and not Bissell.
The Chairman. I ask that he answer these questions "Yes" or "No,"
Senator O'Conor. Just a second. Wliere the question admits of a
direct answer, as such a question does, it would expedite matters, we
think, if you would answer it directly, and then any explanatory state-
ment that might be made can be admitted.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I knew of it as of 1950.
Senator Ferguson. Now, when did you change against the National-
ist Government, against what you called the "drift-wood govern-
ment"?
Mr. Lattimore. I, Senator, did not change against any government.
I would find it hard to document my answer here exactly, but I think
about 19 — oh, by tlie end of the war, I had grave doubts whether the
Nationalist Government could survive a civil war; and by 1947 I was
sure that they couldn't win a civil war ; and I think by about 1948 I
was convinced they were going to lose the civil war.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know now that your own Government,
the United States Government, is supporting what you class as the
"driftwood" government ?
Mr. Lattimore. I do, and I think it is a mistaken policy.
Senator Ferguson. And you are challenging the opinion and the
honesty of people who you claim are assembled together as the China
lobby, who are supporting the very thing that their Government is
supporting, that is, the Nationalist Government of China; is that not
a fact?
3020 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir, not exactly. I am maintaining my own
opinion as an expert, so far as I am an expert, that the Government on
Formosa is not viably for a long period. I think any policy based
on that assumption is a mistaken policy that will lead "us eventually
into great difficulties. You have said that I have challenged the good
faith
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. Of the China lobby. I have just said that the
China lobby is a rather amorphous thing, and I would certainly not
challenge the good faith of every person associated with the China
lobby.
Senator Ferguson. Well, now, do you mean to say that what you
say in here is praise of the principles of the China lobby ?
Mr. Lattimore. "WliatI say here is that the consequences of sub-
mitting to intimidation which characterizes as a traitor or an agent
of Eussia or the Chinese Communists, or a fellow traveler of the
American Communists, anybody who voices his opinion that the
China lobby is wrong, is one that is disastrous to the conduct of
foreign policy in this country.
Senator Ferguson. Now, when you say in your statement that the
State Department is the victim of the China lobby
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Senator Ferguson. Are you not impugning the motives of the China
lobby in advocating the support of what you call the "driftwood"
government ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am impugning the tactics of the China lobby in
its resort to intimidation instead of fair argument based on analysis
and discussion of facts.
Senator Ferguson. Do you think if the State Department followed
your philosophy that you have stated here this morning^ that they
would be victims and would you call them victims of you?
Mr. Lattimore. That is a hypothetical question, "of you"
Senator Ferguson. You do not think that they will follow it?
Mr. Lattimore. Because the Department has never followed my
advice or opinions.
Senator Ferguson. This morning you indicated that the State De-
partment should call in academic people, such as you, for consulta-
tions, is that right ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is quite right; and if I may qualify that a
moment, I believe that the State Department should call in people
who hold my point of view, and who hold all other points of view.
Senator Ferguson. Even including the Communist point of view ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that the State Department should certainly
familiarize itself with the Communist point of view. The Communist
point of view may be a dangerous factor in our present political life,
but nobody can deny it is important.
Senator Ferguson. But do you not think if a man is called in as
a consultant on the Communist point of view, he should be openly
known to every member of the State Department and the public that
he is a Communist ?
]\Ir. Latitmore. I am not sure, Senator, how I would handle a dif-
ficult problem of this kind. I have never been faced with it. Ir^
government, it is obviously necessary to have a very careful and au-
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3021
tlioritative study of Communist aims, methods, and so on, and my
inclination is to believe that that kind of study can be made best, not
by consulting Communists, but by the study of people who never have
been Communists, and are neither Communists nor ex-Communists,
but are trained experts in political science, economics, and so forth.
Senator Ferguson. Then you would say that the State Department
was not proper in calling in, for instance, Mr. Rosinger, as an expert,
and then find that he comes before this committee and when asked
the question as to whether or not he was or was not a Communist at
the time that he was called in as an expert by the State Department,
that he refuses to answer on the ground it would tend to incriminate
him?
Mr. Lattimore. You mean the State Department should have
known before what other people only knew afterward ?
Senator Ferguson. Do you think that that is an answer to my
question ?
Mr. Lattimore. I do. Senator.
Senator Ferguson. Well, I do not.
I asked whether you thought it was correct
Senator O'Conor. The question was whether you approved of that
procedure.
Mr. Lattimore. I approve of the State Department calling in any-
body who at the time he is called in holds a reputable position in the
field of writing and publishing about foreign policy in this country,
and I do not think that they should automatically adopt the opin-
ions of any one person. I think that they should, and I believe that
they do to the best of their ability, subject to the present atmosphere
of intimidation, try to assemble opinion, sort it, and come to consid-
ered conclusions themselves.
Senator Ferguson. Is it your considered judgment that the Secre-
tary of State now is intunidated? You charge it many times here
in this statement.
Mr. Lattimore. I should say the indications run that way, Senator.
Senator Ferguson. Well, will you give us what the intimidation is ?
You see, Mr. Lattimore, as I understand it, j^ou are one of these men
that insists that there should not be any reflections cast upon anyone
or his character without real proof, and now, what is your proof that
the Secretary of State is being intimidated? That is a very serious
charge against a Cabinet officer.
Mr. LATriMORE. I should say that the drift of our policy for the
last couple of years shows that while the State Department still, to a
certain extent, protests that it is following its own policy, it is largely
following, in fact, the policy of its most intemperate critics.
Senator Ferguson. And you call the State Department, then, the
victim of its critics because you personally do not agree with the opin-
ions of the critics, is that correct ?
Mr. Lattimore. I would say that, no, it is not a question of whether
I agree with the opinions of the critics ; it is a question of an observed
phenomenon which has been frequently referred to in the press of this
country, as well as in the press of Great Britain, as saying that the
State Department has become the prisoner or the captive of its critics.
Senator Ferguson. You objected very strenuously to some remarks
about you, as to the State Department being the victim of your
philosophy, did you not ?
88348— 52— pt. 9- 9
3022 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I have objected to having it represented that my
opinions influenced the State Department when in fact they did not;
and if my opinions had influenced the State Department, that would
be part of the record, and I would have no objection whatever.
Senator Ferguson. Did you not ad^^ocate that we allow it to appear
that we had lost Korea ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Ferguson. "WHiat did you state ?
Mr. Lattimore. I wrote a syndicated newspaper article in which I
attempted to analyze what I thought was the then state of discussion
of foreign policy in Washington, as of the end of 1949, I think.
Senator Ferguson. What was your remark on that?
Mr. Lattimore. And my remark, which has been used out of con-
text by many people and I think is one of the most unscrupulous cases
of using my writings out of context that I know of, contained not a
word of advice to Washington policy makers. I said as clearly as I
could that in the previous case of China, Chiang Kai-shek had fallen,
and Chiang Kai-shek had been supported by this country, and as a
result the State Department had been accused not merely of letting
Chiang Kai-shek fall but of pushing him over.
In the case of Korea, as of the summer of 1949, it had been widely
advertised that Korea was not considered an essential part of the de-
fense periphery of the United States; as it appeared in the press it
was stated that a line had been drawn which included Japan and
Okinawa but did not include Korea or Formosa, as I recall. I said
that as soon as the American military forces had been completely
withdrawn from South Korea, it was likely that South Korea would
fall; and, with the China lobby accusations in mind, I warned that
Washington policy planners did not want the eventual fall of South
Korea to be turned against them in an accusation that South Korea
had not merely fallen but had been pushed by the State Department.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, have you ever worked for or
been in the employ of any other government than the United States?
Mr. Lattimore. May t qualify that answer. Senator? I worked
for Chiang Kai-shek.
Senator O'C^onor. The question is as to any other government. It
admits of a direct answer : You were or you were not. And if you
were, and then desire to make any explanation, that is perfectly in
order. But you ought to answer the question directly first.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't tliink I can. Senator. I want to ask for the
opinion of you gentlemen on this subject. I was in the employ of
Chiang Kai-shek, who was at the head
Senator Ferguson. Please answer : Were you or were you not in the
employ of any other government?
Mr. FoRTAS. Point of order.
The Chairman. You have no right to ask for a point of order.
Just a minute, Mr. Chairman. Just a minute. I object to that
way of proceeding. This gentleman has no right to ask for a point
of order, and he is no part of this body.
Mr. Lattimore. Let me rephrase the beginning of my reply. I da
not believe
The Chairman. Just a moment, Mr. Chairman.
Senator O'Conor. Just a second, Mr. Lattimore-
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3023
The question is one -svhich, in the opinion of the Chair, does admit
of a direct answer. He eitlier was or was not. Now, he can make
any explanation he desires after he has answered the question.
The Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just a second, before that goes any
further.
I advised this gentleman when he first come in here of what his
province would be. Now, that was no part of it, your breaking in
with any point of order. Now, if you do that again, you are going to
be excluded from this committee.
Mr. FoRTAS. That is up to you.
The Chairman. That is all right, and don't do it again.
Mr. FoRTAS. That is up to you.
The Chairman. I will certainly do it.
Mr. FoRTAS. You have the power.
Senator O'Conor. Proceed, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, you have stated that in the opinion of the
Chair, the question is susceptible to a "yes" or "no" answer. May I
state that, in my opinion, it is not susceptible to a "yes" or "no" an-
swer, and I want to explain why. However, as I have said before,
if the committee or any member of the committee insists on putting
words in my mouth, I will use those words.
Senator O'Conor. Are we to understand, then, Mr. Lattimore, that
you do not know whether you were or were not ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Ferguson. Now I will ask the next question. Your answer
is that you do not know.
Senator O'Conor. If that is correct, you can proceed.
Senator Ferguson. Just a moment.
My next question — that answers that question, and you do not know.
I will ask you whether or not any of your trips have ever been financed
by any foreign government ?
Mr. Lattimore. The answer to that question depends on the pre-
vious one and, therefore, I will have to answer again I do not know.
Senator Ferguson. I will noAv exclude from my question the Na-
tionalist Government of China, and as to anv other government, have
any oi your trips been financed m any amount or in any way ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I think I should yes to that.
Senator Ferguson. Now, will you give us the nations or the govern-
ments that have financed your trips?
Mr. Latitmore. Well, in 1929, when I was traveling in Manchuria,
I was allowed to buy tickets at rebate rates on the South Manchuria
Railway', which was Japanese-owned and I believe partly a private
corporation and partly a Government corporation. This was a usual
practice of the South Manchuria Railway at that time, a privilege that
they offered to all writers and journalists.
In 1936, when I traveled home from China to this country via
Siberia, and spent some days in Moscow, I made a side trip to Lenin-
grad ; and as I recall, the expenses of that trip were paid by the Soviet
branch of what was then the Soviet Council of the IPR.
Senator Ferguson. That would be the Government?
Mr. Lattimore. In Russia, that would be either a branch of the
Government or an organization subsidized by the Government, and
we needn't quibble about that.
3024 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Then perhaps to be absolutely scrupulous, I should say that when
I accompanied Vice President Wallace, as he then was, on his mission
in Siberia and China in 1944, 1 do not know, but possibly a part of the
local expenses in Siberia and China of the party as a whole, not of me
individually unless I was included in the whole, may have been borne
by the Russian or Chinese Governments.
Senator Ferguson. Were you ever in the employ of the British
Government ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Ferguson. Were you ever employed by any British subjects
to make trips or financed by them ?
Mr. Lattimore. I was employed in a British firm which was regis-
tered as a British firm, although it had other nationals in its employ ;
and in the course of ordinary business work I traveled fairly exten-
sively in China on firm expense accounts.
Sentaor Ferguson. What was the firm?
Mr. Lattimore. The firm was the firm of Arnhold & Co., registered
as a British firm, operating at a number of places in China, and it was
an import and export and engineering firm.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever do any writing that was directly
or indirectly financed by the British Government ?
Mr. Lattimore. Neither directly nor indirectly, as far as I know.
I worked for a newspaper once which was British owned.
Senator Ferguson. What paper?
Mr. Lattimore. The Peking and Tientsin Times, of Tientsin,
China.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever work for any British subjects on
writings that were financed by the British subjects, directly or indi-
rectly?
Mr. Lattimore. I have contributed to British publications.
Senator Ferguson. In no other way?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I can recall.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever make a trip into Mongolia for the
British ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think so. Oh, at one time when I was travel-
ing in Mongolia, I had a supplementary grant — which was considered
an honor award, but took the form of a financial grant, which I used
for expenses of my traveling — from the Eoyal Geographical Society.
Senator Ferguson. Of Britain ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
Senator Ferguson. Did you write anything for that compensation ?
Mr. Lattimore. Frequently for the publication of the Royal Geo-
graphical Society.
Senator Ferguson. For the particular grant that you had from the
Royal Geographical Society?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe so. I don't believe that there
was any publication.
Senator Ferguson. Going back to my asking you about what you
said in relation to Korea, I take from the Sunday Compass — you
know what that is ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is a paper in New York, I believe.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3025
Senator Ferguson. This is an editorial. I tliink they quote you
here as saying :
The thing to do, therefore, is to let South Korea fall — but not to let it look
as though we pushed it.
Mr. Lattimore. If the Compass quoted me to that effect, they mis-
understood what I wrote in the original article, and I should like to
have the original article put in the record, if I may.
Senator Ferguson. I will ask that it be made a part of the record.
Mr. Lattuviore. When I wrote that article, my intention — and I
believe it was clear from the text — was to say, not that this was my
advice, but that this was the problem that confronted policy makers
in Washington.
Senator Ferguson. Did you approve that policy ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not entirely. I don't know whether this is in
writing at any time, but I certainly remember my attitude at the time,
and that was that if we were going to withdraw from Korea and leave
a situation in which I was sure that the South Korean Government
was going to fall, then if you are getting out, the thing to do is to
get out and not stay there with one foot to be caught in a trap.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Lattimore, do you have the original article
from which you said that quotation was incorrectly drawn?
Mr. Lattimore. I have it at home.
Senator Smith. I would like to know if that is a signed article by
you. It says "By Owen Lattimore."
Senator Ferguson. I want to correct it. I took that as being part
of this editorial, and I do see now, as Senator Smith points out, that
there is a division there and it is not part of the editorial.
It looks like 5'our language.
Mr. Lattimore. This is my language, and this paragraph at the end
has been taken without reference to the article as a whole. And I
submit the article as a whole means exactly what I have just said.
Senator Ferguson. Were you paid for this article?
Mr. Lattimore. This, incidentally, I should like to make clear, Sen-
ator, is not an article, in minor detail, it is not an article written for
the Sunday Compass. It is an article written for a syndicate which
sold the article to whatever papers
Senator Smith. Did you write the article?
Mr. Lattimore, Certainly I wrote it.
Senator Smith. All right, then, that speaks for itself.
Senator Ferguson. This is your language ?
Mr. Lattimore. This is my language; the whole article is my
language.
Senator Ferguson. What were you asking, and I consented, to put
in the record ?
Mr. Lattimore. The whole article.
Senator Ferguson. And you say that that is not in the whole article ?
Mr. Lattimore. I say that this concluding paragraph is only a part
of the whole article, which sums up what I considered at the time to be
the discussion of policy toward Korea in Washington at that time.
Senator Ferguson. What did you mean by the last line : "Hence the
recommendation of a parting grant of $150,000,000.*'?
Mr. Lattimore. May I look over the article as a whole ?
Senator O'Conor. You may ; yes, indeed.
3026 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
It might help us all in evaluating it if you were to give the date.
Mr. Lattimore. The date is July 1949. It is a little earlier than I
thought.
Senator, since several people are participating in this discussion,
and since not everybody has a text, may I read the full text so that we
all have it in our minds ?
Senator O'Conor. We had intended, or I had at least, to put the
entire article in the record, but I think that you are entitled to quote
any part of it that you think gives a different impression than that
which is contained in the paragraph there.
Mr. Lattimore. I think. Senator, in order to make it clear that I am
here quoting opinion rather than stating opinion, it would be advisable
to let me read the whole article, because the article is linked, paragraph
by paragraph, and I don't think that any isolated paragraph gives the
full
Senator O'Conor. You have been given the article. You may read
it.
Mr. Lattimore. "Washington," and this is July 17, 1949.
Senator Ferguson. Were you paid for that article by the Compass ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not by the Compass.
Senator Ferguson. By a syndicate. And so you were really, in
effect, paid, then, for the w^riting of this article; and what syndicate?
Mr. Lattimore. Overseas News Agency, and it is marked here.
"ONA." [Reading:]
Washington (ONA). — It is a foregone conclusion that the Truman adminis-
tration and the Department of State are going to have a rough time with their
Korean policy. By the same token, Republicans in Congress, together with
Democrats who are critical of United States policy in Asia, are going to have
a field day sniping at the ofiicial presentation of the policy of granting President
Syngman Rhee's South Korea .$150,000,000 for a "recovery program."
As the record stands, it is now revealed that Secretary of State Dean Ache-
son made a strong appeal for the .$1.50,000,000 grant before a closed session of thA
Plouse Foreign Affairs Committee.
Unless South Korea gets the money, he warned, it will fall within 3 months.
Simultaneously with this urgent appeal, however, it is also revealed that the
evacuation of American occupation troops from South Korea, where they havo
been sitting on the lid ever since the end of the war with Japan, has now been
completed. All that remain are about 200 officers and men who have the dismal
and unpromising mission of attempting to train an anti-Communist and anti-
Russian defense force.
There is an ominous comparison between this mission and the MAGIC force —
That is capital "M," capital "A," capital "G," capital "I," cap-
ital "C"—
or military advisory group in China, which found itself completely baffled by
corruption and personal warlordism in Chiang Kai-shek's China.
Yet there is logic to the course of action advocated by Secretary Acheson. It
is, moreover, a perfectly convincing logic. What makes the utterances of the
Secretary of State sound absurd is not the logic of United States policy, but the
fact that the policy is now conducted under rules of protocol which have become
as rigid as tribal taboos.
For the logic we must go back to the sad precedent of China. The sad truth
is that Gen. George C. Marshall
Senator Ferguson. Wait a minute. "Sad" is not in there on the
"truth."
Mr. Lattimore. It was "sad precedent" — and I reread the word
"sad" [reading] :
The truth is that Gen. George C. Marshall, on his mission to China in 1946,
before he became Secretary of State, became convinced of several unpleasant
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3027
things which, because of the state of political opinion in America, could not be
stated out loud.
Senator Ferguson. Now you are going to name all of those things.
Mr. Latti3iore (reading) :
First, he was convinced that the Kuomintang would not be able to triumph
over the Chinese Communists unless it took American advice.
Second, he was convinced that politically and militarily America could not
handle the situation in China by taking the Kuomintang by the scruff of the neck
and the seat of the pants and making it behave. Yet he could not, as a states-
man, advise what seemed sensible to him as a general — that the United States
simply pull out and abandon an untenable position.
As a compromise, American policy took a course of relative inaction, but not
complete inaction. As it became more and more obvious that Chiang Kai-shek
and the Kuomintang were doomed the conduct of American policy became
increasingly delicate. The problem was how to allow them to fall without making
it look as if the United States had pushed them. Such a policy never succeeds
completely, and critics have done their best to make the public believe that the
United States did push Chiang and the Kuomintang over the cliff.
Korea is another chapter in the same unhappy story. I have yet to meet an
American who knows all the facts and believes that Syngman Rhee is either
a popular or a competent President of South Korea. In spite of high-pressure
elections, his lecrislature is more badly split against him than China's was against
Chiang Kai-shek.
Senator Smith. Than China's was?
Mr. Lattimore (reading) :
Against Chiang Kai-shek.
The thing to do, therefore, is to let South Korea fall, but not to let it look as
though we pushed it. Hence the recommendation of a parting grant of
$150,000,000.
I submit that that is exactly what I said it was.
Senator Ferguson. Yon did not put in quotes that this was some-
body else's statement about letting it fall.
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I didn't put it in quotes.
Senator Ferguson. That was your opinion?
Mr. Lattimore. My opinion was
Senator Ferguson. Answer my question. That was your opinion?
Mr. Lattimore. I was trying to convey at that time
Senator Ferguson. I want to know what you did convey, and not
what you were trying to convey. What about what you did convey ?
Senator O'Conor. You are at liberty to state whether that correctly
expresses your view^point, and whether you did use those words, and,
if it admits of any other interpretation, you are free to express it.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes; I think it admits of another interpretation
than the one Senator Ferguson is trying to put on it.
Senator Ferguson. I am asking you whether anyone else used that
phrase : "The thing to do, therefore, is to let South Korea fall, but
not to let it look as though we pushed it" ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know whether anybody else used the phrase
or not, Senator, but I think that that paragraph clearly implies that
this is the problem with which the State Department is grappling in
Washington as of July 1949, and is not my advice to the State
Department.
Senator Watkins. Let me ask you this question: Did you favor
the granting of $150,000,000 to South Korea, so when
Mr. Lattimore. I said there, I say there quite clearly in the article,
Senator, that I consider that there is logic to it ; yes.
3028 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Watkins. To give them $150,000,000 so when they did go
over to the Communists, they would have $150,000,000 to start off
in supporting Communist causes ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir. I thought, as I think it is clear from that
article, I agreed with people in Washington who thought that the
South Korean Government would probably not be able to stand ; but
I thought that the only honest policy for the United States was to do
what was humanly possible in the situation, to give the South Korean
Government what it needed to stand, so that if it fell, or when, as I
believed, it fell, it should not appear that there could be no honest
accusation that the United States had simply abandoned Korea.
Senator Watkins. You understand that if they were given $150,000-
000, knowing that they are going to fall, that they would be that much
enriched and would have that much money to help out in the Commu-
nist cause and it would go into Communist hands, that $150,000,000;
is that not the logical conclusion from that recommendation of the
Secretary as well as your own recommendation ?
Mr. Lattimore. May I answer "yes" or "no," and then qualify?
Senator Watkins. That is the way we want you to answer.
Mr. Lattimore. My answer is "No," and my answer is that the logic,
on the basis of precedent in the case of China, is that out of that
$150,000,000, probably $149,999,999.99 would end up in New York
banks in the possession of rich Koreans.
Senator Watkins. Then you favored giving over $149 million to go
into the hands of some private people who would graft that much
from the Korean Government, and you still recommended it?
Mr. Lattimore. I recommended that we do our best to give the
Koreans a chance, and if they misused that chance, that was their
responsibility.
Senator Watkins. You did not want it to come in to the Communist
group ; you wanted them to come in pretty well fixed up ?
Senator O'Conor. I think that he ought to be permitted to answer
Senator Watkins' question at this point.
Mr. Lattimore. I believed that we had done the best we could in
Korea, or we had tried to do the best we could in Korea, with a certain
amount of bungling; that Syngman Rhee and his crowd were pretty
hopeless, but that the only honorable thing in the circumstances, when
we had announced that we thought the situation was untenable by us,
was to stake them to a chance in life ; yes.
Senator Jenner. Did the Government follow that policy, Profes-
sor?
Mr. Lattimore. The Government — may I answer "Yes," with qual-
ifications ?
Senator Jenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. My impression, just from recollection, is that the
Government was in the course of following that policy, which had
been determined before I had anything to say about it, and therefore
was not influenced by me ; and that before it had been completed, the
North Korean Communist aggression occurred, and our whole policy,
in my opinion quite rightly, was immediately switched to resistance
against armed Communist aggression.
Senator Jenner. You stated that you feared that the corrupt Ko-
reans would get — I forget; $149,909,999.99, or something — and that
the balance would probably go to Korea. Now, is it not a fact that out
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3029
of the moneys that Congress appropriated to help the Syngman Shee
government in South Korea, actually your figures are almost correct,
except about all we gave the South Koreans in the way of aid was
about $200 worth of bailing wire?
Mr. Lattimoke. I don't know, sir.
Senator Smith. Mr. Lattimore, the concluding paragraph which
we have read, and I quote from your concluding paragi'aph, says :
The thing to do, therefore, is to let South Korea fall — but not to let it look as
though we pushed it. Hence the recommendation of a parting grant of .$150,000,-
000.
Well, now, who did you expect South Korea to fall to, and what
force or power were you thinking of when you said, "The thing to
do, therefore, is to let South Korea fall" ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I presume at that time — and remember, I
am not stating my own opinion, I am quoting opinion in Washing-
ton— I assume that the conclusion must have been that it would fall
to the Communist-dominated North Korean Government.
Senator Smith. And you understood at that time that the N'orth
Korean Government at that time was Communist-dominated?
Mr. Lattimore. I certainly understood it, and my feeling on that
subject. Senator Smith, was not a hasty conclusion; it was based on
a considerable previous course of events — statements of opinions by
authoritative persons.
For instance, on June 24, Congressional Kecord, 1949, page 8297,
Senator Knowland read into the Eecord the following quotation from
Way of a Fighter, by General Chennault :
Gen. George C. Marshall told Congress in the spring of 1948 that if Manchuria
were lost to the Chinese Communists, the United States position in Southern
Korea would be untenable. Manchuria has been lost to the Chinese Communists.
On July 5, Congressional Record, 1949, page 8821, Senator Know-
land stated his belief that —
It will not be possible for the southern half of Korea, which is the Korean
Government recognized by the United States and the other Western Powers, set
up under the general auspices of the United Nations, to retain its freedom.
Therefore, it was apparently the well-considered opinion of people
in a position to know the inside of government workings much better
than I, that this was an untenable situation. If a situation is con-
sidered by both the top military and the top political authorities to
be untenable, then my reaction would be, "All right, it is untenable,
and the thing to do with an untenable situation is to get out and get
back to a situation that is tenable."
Senator Smith. And with that in mind, you said to let South Korea
fall, and you meant fall to the Communists ?
Mr. Lattimore. With that in mind, I summed that up as my read-
ing of Washington opinion at the time.
Senator Smith. Well, could you answer my question ? You meant
"to fall to the Communists," and let Korea fall to the Coimnunists?
Mr. Lattimore. 1 meant that my interpretation of Washington
opinion was that they were prepared to let Korea fall to the Com-
munists.
Senator Smith. You did write this language yourself : "The thing
to do, therefore, is to let South Korea fall," and there is no mistake
about that being your language; is there?
3030 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. That is the language in which I expressed my sum-
mi ng up of Washington opinion.
Senator Smith. And then you go ahead and say :
Hence the recommendation of a parting grant of $150,000,000.
]Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Smith. Now then, you meant by that, did 5^ou not, for the
Government of America to throw away $150,000,000 on the South
Koreans, after j'ou had recommended that it be allowed to fall to the
Communists ?
Mr. Lattimore. I did not recommend that it be allowed to fall to
the Communists.
Senator Smith. Well, you said :
Hence the recommendation of a parting grant of $150,000,000.
Mr. Lattimore. I stated my summing up of Washington opinion.
Senator Smith. So that you do not say you recommended the $150,-
000,000?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Smith. You did not ?
Mr. Lattemore. No, sir.
Senator Smith. Now, the quotation that you read from the Record,
the Congressional Record, was more than a year prior to this date?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Smith. Now, when did you conclude that Korea, South
Korea, had to fall to the Communists — before this article ? How long
before ?
Mr. Lattimore. When I wrote this article, the discussion of this
$150,000,000 grant was being discussed in Washington. I therefore
looked up the newspaper records to see what had led up to the situa-
tion, and I attempted to write an article summing that up.
Senator Smith. Now, you were familiar, were you not, with the
speech that Mr. Acheson made on January 5 — I believe it was — 1950,
in which he referred to the fact that Korea and Formosa, I believe
he put it, were beyond the defense periphery of America?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Smith. Did you approve of that policy?
Mr. Latitmore. I understood — may I answer the question and then
qualify it ?
Senator O'Conor. You may do that.
Mr. Lattimore, I approved of that policy because I understood
that it was not solely a State Department policy but one that had
been arrived at after authoritative military surveys of the problems
by the military forces — the representatives of the military forces of
the Government.
Senator Smith. Whom did you understand that from — the State
Department officials or the Defense Department officials ?
Mr. Lattimore. I understood it from the press, Senator.
Senator Smith. Only from the press?
Mr. Lattimore. Only from the press.
Senator Smith. You had no discussion with anyone in the State
Department about that policy ?
Mr. Lattimore. I do not believe I did.
Senator Smith. Well, now, are you sure whether you did or did not
discuss it with anyone in the State Department?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3031
Mr. Lattimore, I am not sure, I say. Yes, in 1949, I would have
seen various militarjr and civilian friends of mine, but whether I dis-
cussed this particular problem with them, I don't recall.
Senator Smith. You would not say that you did not discuss it with
some of the people in the State Department ?
Mr. Lattimore. I might have, and I would have considered it a
perfectly legitimate subject to discuss
Senator Smith. Well, then, was
Mr. Lattimore. For any newspaperman to discuss.
Senator Smith. Was that partly your conclusion, too — that Korea
and Formosa were beyong the defense periphery of America?
Mr. Lattimore. My conclusion, Senator, was that in view of what
I knew from the press, and the public discussion, they were right, or
right enough so that I wouldn't attack it.
Senator Smith. Did you not regard that statement or enunciation
of policy on January 5, 1950, as really an invitation for the North
Koreans to immediately move into South Korea, when we announced
we were not going to defend Korea and Formosa, and was that not
tantamount to an invitation to go into Korea, for the Communists ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is a question of subjective judgment. Sena-
tor, and it wouldn't be my conclusion, and it would be a perfectly fair
conclusion for anybody who wanted to draw that conclusion.
Senator Smith. In other words, the Communists of North Korea,
when they saw that announcement of Mr. Acheson, that was tanta-
mount to saying, "We aren't going to defend South Korea"; was it
not?
Mr. Lattimore. The Communists, or anybody else, could read that
the United States had said this was outside the defense perimeter.
Senator Smith. That meant they were not going to defend it ; did
it not ?
Mr. Lattimore. That presumably implied
Senator Smith. Was it not what you and everybody else would
understand from that language?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, is that the conclusion that you
drew?
Mr. Lattimore. The conclusion I drew is that if a position is con-
sidered untenable, then it is wise not to try to defend it.
Senator Ferguson. I asked you whether you drew the conclusion
that the United States Government had announced a policy, and
therefore would not defend Korea ?
Senator O'Conor. Your knowledge, in other words, of the attitude
of the Government in that respect.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I must confess that one thing that did
not enter my mind at that time was the North Korean armed aggres-
sion— marching into a country to conquer it by force of arms and
forcibly change the system of government. If it is put on the ques-
tion not of supporting the South Korean Government, but of resist-
ing external armed aggression, I should have said. "Certainly; we
should resist external armed aggression in Korea or anywhere else
in the world."
Senator Ferguson. You felt that we should let them penetrate it
and take it over, and not do anything about it ?
3032 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. It is always difficult, Senator, even so recently as
3 or 4 years ago, to maintain that you can recall verbally exactly what
you thought at the time.
Senator Ferguson. You wrote an article advocating something, and
we have read it to you.
Mr. Lattimore. I believe that my anticipation at the time, based
on the political news that was coming out of Korea, was that the
South Korean Government was going to be changed from inside by
the discontent against Syngman Rhee that was already evident, and
that a different kind of government was going to come on the top.
Senator Ferguson. That would be a Communist government ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not necessarily, no.
Senator Ferguson. Would it have had Communists in it?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know, Senator.
Senator Ferguson. Well, you were writing as a foreign expert ; and,
Mr. Lattimore, you knew that this article was going to be distributed
throughout the world, and it was for that purpose, was it not?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, may I speak to your use of the word "ex-
pert"'? I notice that it was worked very successfully on Mr. John
Carter Vincent when he was here. I would like to point out that
"expert" is only a relative tenn. Experts are not infallible. If ex-
perts were infallible, we would not have any ; we would have a series
of numbers on a telephone, and you would just dial and find out what
is going to happen. Experts differ from each other, and among
each other.
My feeling at the time was that we had considered that Korea was
untenable; that the Government, as it stood at that time, was going to
fall ; and that this would probably lead to some form of amalgamated
government between North and South Korea, which we had always
stated was our policy. And I must say that I still hoped at that time
that a modified government would be possible that would not be en-
tirely dominated by the Korean Communists.
Senator Ferguson. Wlien you say here, "Let South Korea fall,"
you meant more, did you not, Mr. Lattimore, than just the Govern-
ment changing by a vote ? South Korea was to fall and not the Gov-
ernment ; and therefore, the only way it would fall would be to arms,
is that not correct ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, not necessarily correct.
Senator Ferguson. Well, I ask you whether this article was not
circulated throughout the world ?
Mr. Latttmore. I wish I could say that anything I ever wrote. Sen-
ator, was circulated throughout the world. I am not such a fan-
tastically popular author as all of that.
Senator Ferguson. Would you say that Russia, Communist
Senator Smith. What does that mean. Overseas News Agency ?
Senator Ferguson. It was to be distributed outside the United
States, was it not ?
Mr. Latitmore. I believe they sold, or tried to sell, their service
abroad, just as AP and UP and other services do.
Senator Ferguson. Well, now do you not think it is a fair inter-
pretation of your remarks here that you, Owen Lattimore, were telling
the world that the thing to do for America, therefore, was to let South
Korea fall, but not to let it look as though we pushed it, and it was an
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3033
invitation that America would not intervene in case they attempted
to make it fall?
Mr. Lattimore. The answer to that, Senator, is "No," with quali-
fications, if I may.
Senator Ferguson. All right, qualify it.
Mr. Lattimore. I was telling the world what it already knew:
That the United States was considering that Korea lay outside our
defense perimeter, and was untenable. In that situation, I thought
that the South Korean Government was bound to fall, and that there
would take place an amalgamation beween North Korea and South
Korea, under circumstances obviously disadvantageous to us, but we
had faced that fact by saying that the position was untenable.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, did you not also indicate to the
public and say to the public that we had done the identical thing in
relation to China : That we had let it fall ? "The thing to do, there-
fore, is to let South Korea fall," and you had stated bef oi-e : "Korea
is another chapter in the same unhappy story." And right about that
you say that we in effect allowed Chiang to fall, but we also made it
look as if we did not push him.
Mr. Lattimore. May I answer that question "No," with quali-
fications?
Senator Ferguson. All right, give your qualifications.
Mr. Lattimore. China had fallen primarily because China was also
a situation that we could not control. When we could not control it,
we began to withdraw our support, but in fairness to the still existing
Chinese Government we w^ere, I think, honorably careful to make it
clear that the fall of China was not due to our pushing it over, as was
being said by either ill-informed or ill-intentioned critics.
Senator Ferguson. Now, you did use the same language, did you
not, and I will read it to you :
As a compromise, American policy tooli a course of relative inaction, but
not complete inaction.
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Ferguson (reading) :
As it became more and more obvious that Chiang Kai-shek and the Kuomintang
u'ere doomed, the conduct of American jwlicy became increasingly delicate.
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Ferguson (reading) :
The problem was —
and now you are saying our Government —
The problem was how to allow them to fall without making it look as if the
United States had pushed them. Such a policy never succeeds completely, and
critics have done their best to make the public believe that the United States
did push Chiang and the Kuomintang over the cliff.
In other words, you say that the State Department was not able
to put it over, as far as the public was concerned, that we did not push
them ; and then you seem to criticize some people for bringing it out
to the public that we really did push them, is that not a fact ?
Mr. Lattimore. My answer to your exposition of what you think I
said, Senator, is "No," with qualifications.
Senator Ferguson. All right, qualify it.
Mr. Lattimore. I think it is fairly obvious that the language used
in that syndicated article was sardonic language.
3034 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Ferguson. I assume you made it that way so that the public
would understand it?
Mr. Lattimore. I thought it was understandable, Senator, and
I was not writing for purposes of being obscure.
Senator O'Conor. Just continue with your explanation, Mr. Latti-
more.
j\Ir. Lattimore. I was sardonically describing a situation in which
a course of withdrawal had become, in the opinion of those who were
directing our policy, inevitable because the situation had become un-
tenable. A policy of withdrawal is always full of pitfalls, as far
as public opinion is concerned. Misunderstanding is very easy, and
very natural, and manipulation of that misunderstanding for polit-
ical purposes is always tempting.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever know that there were some of
the nations in the United Nations that advocated that after we started
the war in Korea, it would be a good thing if we could be pushed out
gracefully ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir, Senator ; I don't think I know that.
Senator Ferguson. You never heard that ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Ferguson. That would be along the same line of allowing
it to fall but not let the public know
Mr. Laitimore. Senator
Senator Ferguson. Would it not?
Mr. Lattimore. The war in Korea began in 1950, after a date
at which I have been forced to neglect a great part of what should be
my professional activity in keeping abreast of the details of news in
the Far East because of the continuing malicious attacks to which
I have been subjected, and so I cannot claim to be as well informed as
perhaps I should be.
Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman, I have just a couple of questions.
Mr. Lattimore, this Overseas News Agency is the one that distrib-
uted this article, and did they ever distribute other articles by you?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir ; they distributed other articles.
Senator Smith. How was that Overseas News Agency set up, and
who were the personnel there that managed it, and who did you deal
with ? Those questions I would like to have answered.
Mr. Lattimore. The Overseas News Agency is a small syndicate
in New York, and I was approached by somebody working for that
agency at the time that I was leaving the Government service, and I
am sorry I don't recall his name, asking me if I would be willing
to write an occasional column of comment on the Far East; and I
think that I began writing for them occasionally in 1945, and con-
tinued until 1948 or 1949, 1 think it was 1949, when their finances were
somewhat in difficulty, and they could no longer afford to pay me
and, in fact, they still owe me a certain amount of money ; and I ceased
writing for them.
Senator Sisiith. Was Mr. Thackrey, the editor and publisher, the
man who talked to you?
Mr. Lattimore. To the best of my knowledge. Senator, I must say
I have never met Mr. Thackrey, and I don't know him, and to the best
of my knowledge he lias nothing to do with the agency.
Senator Smith. And how about Mr. Gold ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3035
Mr. Latti3iore. Are you reading from the letterhead of the
company ?
Senator Smith. Yes.
JSIr. Lattimore. I never heard of Mr. Gold in connection with the
Overseas News Agency. The head of Overseas Agency when I was
writing for it was Mr. Jacob Landau, who has since retired ; and who
is the head of the agency now, I don't know.
Senator Smith. Well, now, where did you understand that news
agency circulated its articles?
Mr. Lattimore. It circulated its articles wherever it could sell them,
as far as I know, and let me see if I can recall some of the papers in
which articles of mine written for Overseas News Agency have been
published. One would be the New York Herald Tribune ; one is the
New Republic; one is the Watertown Times of New York; and one
is a small paper in Connecticut, something like Watertown ; and the
New Haven Register, I think ; and the St. Louis Post-Dispatch ; and
the Baltimore Sun.
Senator Smith. How about foreign papers?
Mr. Lattimore. The Louisville Courier. Papers abroad, I don't
remember ever receiving any clips on that it was published.
Senator Smith. You do not know about any of the other foreign
papers ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am sure you could get the record from Overseas
News Agency.
Senator Smith. When you were approached for an article to be
sent out. were you given or was it suggested to you the subject that
they wished you to write on?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Smith. You chose the subject? Did you write it and sell
it to them, that is what I am getting at ?
]Mr. Lattimore. To use the celebrated phrase. Senator, I wrote as I
pleased.
Senator Smith. Then how did you write ; with a view to selling, or
did you first make arrangements for them to buy the article before you
wrote it ?
Mr. Lattimore. What is that ?
Senator Smith. Did you write the article and then attempt to sell
it to whoever would buy, this agency, or did you write as a result of
their arrangement witli you to write an article?
Mr. Latiimore. Their arrangement Avith me was at one time that
I should write an article — the arrangement was at first that I should
write once a week, and later that I should write twice a week, and
later I believe once again that I should write once a week.
Senator Smith. But you chose your own subjects?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
Senator Smith. And in this particular case, you chose as a subject
of your article. "South Korea — Another China," and is that not true?
Is tliat not the name of the article, the subject of the article?
Mr. Lattimore. That is the name that is printed there, but I may
point out that I did not write the titles. Different papers published
my articles under their own headlines.
Senator Smith. You do not think that you chose the name, then,
"South Korea — Another China"?
3036 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I don't believe so ; no. I think that I usually sent
by article in to the agency with a heading of some kind on it, but it
very rarely appeared with the same headline in the different papers in
which it was published.
Senator O'Coxor. All right.
Senator Watkins. I would like to ask one question.
The last paragraph in that article, about South Korea and China, I
am not clear as to whether you have said that that was not an expression
of your opinion, or merely a quote of other opinion.
Mr. Lattimore. That is my attempt at a summation of Washing-ton
opinion.
Senator Watkins. You did not mean that to be your own opinion?
Mr. Lattimore. I meant that to be a summation of Washington
opinion.
Senator Watkins. Well, you could answer whether you meant it to
be your own opinion or not.
Senator O'Conor. Was it similar to yours, or at variance with yours ?
Seiiator Watkins. Was that your opinion ? Let us get it.
Mr. Lattimore. On the whole, I supported the policy.
Senator Watkins. On the whole ; and that included, of course, this
paragraph ?
Mr. LAT'riMORE. If I had been critical of the policy, I should have so
stated it.
Senator O'Conor. Now, Mr. Lattimore, will you resume, and it
occurs to me that this is one connected link, up to the top of page 24,
if you might go on from where you left off reading, if we could just
withhold any questions until you have reached that point.
Mr. Lattimore. There are three interpretations that have been
made of the records of the State Department victims of the China
Lobby :
1. That they sincerely and objectively reported the facts as they saw
them at the time. In a reasonable climate, this would, of course, be
the presumption- and although my knowledge is necessarily limited,
I am sure that it is the fact.
2. That they are Communists and subservient to a foreign power.
On the evidence that I have seen in your hearings and the newspapers,
this is a contemptible and baseless charge.
3. That there existed in this country, and particularly in the Foreign
Service of the State Department, a web of men who were attempting
to serve a Communist cause, that I was a part of this web, and that
the Government officials were either conscious parts of it or dupes.
Senator Smith. Just a moment, there.
Senator O'Conor. Will you withhold questions until he finishes the
top of the next page, if that does not interfere with your questioning?
Senator Smith. All right.
Mr. Lattimore. The central problem of this subcommittee, Senators,
is to decide between these three alternatives. I am concerned directly
in this problem as it touches State Department officials only because of
the third possibility; only because Joseph McCarthy and some of
McCarthy's fellow travelers have attempted to use me as a tool with
which to discredit the men who have had much to do with determining
our far-eastern policy.
Let us take a look— an honest look— at this preposterous theory of a
secret spider web with me at the center of it.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3037
First and foremost, my acquaintance with State Department officials
can best be described as sporadic. I met some of them in China.
Foreigners living in the small foreign communities of China saw each
other frequently, and my wife and I were on friendly terms with them
there. But it is also important that you recognize the limitations of
our acquaintanceship with them and other Foreign Service personnel.
When they were transferred to other posts we lost touch with each
other, and when we again found ourselves in the same city, we were
glad to see each other, but we seldom corresponded with them, or they
with us.
As for my acquaintance with these men and other State Department
people in Washington, I must again remind you that the people in this
country engaged in far-eastern research are very few. For profes-
sional reasons, they need to see a good deal of each other. I have
always circulated among far-eastern people in the State Department
less than most academic specialists on the Far East, because my princi-
pal research interest is the frontier regions between China and Kussia,
especially Mongolia, and Mongolia has never been considered impor-
tant in American foreign policy.
Parenthetically, I consider that the neglect of the Chinese-Russian
frontier in American studies is a serious mistake. The lack of such
studies makes it difficult to coordinate the study of American interests
and policies in the Far East, Central Asia, and the Middle East. I
have done my best to promote such studies and the Johns Hopkins
University is now the leading university in the country in the teaching
of contemporary spoken Mongol and research on the Mongol area.
Senator Jenner. May I ask a question ?
Senator O'Conor. I clid promise Senator Smith, who had attempted
to ask a question before, that he could interrogate the witness.
Senator Smith. You are using an expression that I have been hear-
ing off and on ever since I have been here, for the last year and a half,
and you say "victims of the China lobby." And I have never yet been
able to get anybody to identify the China lobby. Who are the person-
nel of the lobby, now, would you mind telling me, not only for past
understanding but also for future guidance? Who are the China
lobby?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, your question follows on from a question
asked me by Senator Ferguson a moment ago. However, I will do my
best to amplify it.
As I say, I believe it is a rather amorphous body, an open conspiracy
rather than a tight membership organization. I believe that one might
say that it consists partly of professional or amateur lobbyists in the
usual sense; that it has mercenaries, and that it also has occasional
allies, sort of guerrilla troops skirmishing around the fringe; and,
therefore, if one names any one person, that person might not be a
member of the China lobby in exactly the same sense as another person.
But I should say that one of the conspicuous members of the China
lobby is a Mr. William Goodwin, who is or has been actually employed
and registered as a lobbyist for the Chinese Embassy here. There is
the well known Mr. Alfred Kohlberg, who is a man of private means
and able to finance his interests in the discussion of China policy, and
he also has or had financial interests in China. And I believe that some
Senators may be considered to be part of the China lobby, or occasional
allies of the China lobby.
88348— 52— pt. 9 10
3038 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Knowland, for instance, whom I consider to be an absolutely-
sincere man, is frequently referred to as the "Senator from Formosa."
Senator Ferguson. That is a Communist line, is it not, "the Senator
from Formosa," Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. Not to my knowledge, Senator. They may have
picked it up.
Senator Ferguson. You have never heard that the Communist line
is to call the Senator from California, "the Senator from Formosa"?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I have never heard that, and it may be true,
and of course, I don't follow the Communist press.
Senator Smith. Go ahead and give us some more names, because I
am interested in identifying this China lobby.
Mr. Lattimore. And then the China lobby
Senator Smith. Right there, before we leave Senator Knowland,
because I have a very high regard for Senator Knowdand, you do not
mean that he has been a member of the China lobby working in a
sinister way against the interests of America in behalf of China,
do you ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, Senator, I just expressed or stated my opinion
that I have a high regard for Senator Knowland and consider him
an absolutely sincere man, and that is why I prefaced my remarks by
saying that when one man may be named as part of the China lobby,
he is not necessarily the same as another man.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, when you referred to the Sen-
ator from California as "the Senator from Formosa," you were not
treating him with respect, were you?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator
Senator Ferguson. If you were repeating hearsay. You come in
here and you charge people with blackening your character, and then
you use an expression on this stand against a Senator as the "Senator
from Formosa."
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I should
Senator Ferguson. Now, I said yesterday that you could say any-
thing you wanted to on the end of an answer, which you have been
continuously doing, about all of the Senators on this committee ; but
when you bring in another Senator and charge him with being in the
China lobby, and refer to him as "the Senator from Formosa," I
think that you should be called to order.
Mr. Lattimore. I am sorry, Senator. You may call me to order if
you like. I was merely
Senator Ferguson. And you cannot gloss it over with a glib tongue
as to what you feel about him.
Mr. Lattimore. I considered that I was merely citing an extremely
well-known and partly humorous description of him that appears in
the press and on the radio.
Senator O'Conor. It would seem in order, Mr. Lattimore, I agree,
that the reference was uncalled for, and it was not becoming, and
it should not have been made. He is a highly respected and honored
official, and an}^ sort of reference to that is belittling, and certainly
it does not have any part in a serious discussion or consideration such
as that in which we are engaged. And if, as you are now indicating,
it was made a semihumorous way, that, too, has no part in this
proceeding.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3039
Senator Jenner. Miglit I add there that any man who stands up
for America is to be belittled by such men.
Senator O 'Conor. There will be no demonstration of either ap-
proval or disapproval.
Senator Smith. Maj'be this will help a little bit to clear it up, Mr.
Lattimore. On page 22 of your statement you state or you say that
"there are three interpretations that have been made of the records
of the State Department victim of the China lobby."
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Smith. And so you regard those State Department people
that you referred to as "victims," for instance, of Senator Knowland
as one of the China lobby? Do you or do you not refer to Senator
Knowland as one of the people who has made a victim of some of the
State Department people ?
Mr. Lattimore. May I answer "No," with qualifications ?
Senator Smith. All right.
Mr. Lattimore. To the best of my knowledge, as I recall, from the
press, I do not believe that Senator Knowland has joined in this kind
of clamor, and that is one of the reasons that I respect him.
May I advert to a remark made by your chairman? I was called
upon to describe the China lobby, as I understand it, and I very care-
fully specified that there were many different kinds of people in it,
and that the characterization of one was not necessarily applied to
another. Then I thought that it would be the proper, thing for me,
since I believe that in the public mind a number of Senators and Repre-
sentatives are associated with the China lobby, not to show any atti-
tude of fear or cringing by avoiding the mention of the names of
eminent men. I therefore deliberately chose the name of Senator
Knowland because I thought that he was a man whom I could men-
tion in a very respectful manner as showing that I have a difference
of opinion with him, but that I respect him, but that I consider that
his position represents one part of what this China lobby is.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Lattimore, you are in a sense departing from
the point made by the temporary presiding officer. I made no objec-
tion to your naming Senator Knowland, but I did think that you did
go too far in describing him as representing other than the United
States of America, which I am sure he represents alone, and will not
be influenced by any foreign allegiance.
Mr. Lattimore. I am sorry, Senator. Perhaps I should have left
that to the press.
Senator Ferguson. What do you mean ?
Senator Smith. You mean you have an arrangement with someone
on the press to characterize these men, and you should have left that
to the press ? What did you mean by that statement ?
Mr. Lattimore. No. "^I simply meant that this is a term under
which Senator Knowland is frequently referred to, and I might have
assumed that if I had only mentioned Senator Knowland, that the
press, as they often do when they are identif;ydng people, would have
put in brackets that Senator Knowland has been referred to as the
"Senator from Formosa."
Senator Jenner. In what press have you read that Senator Know-
land was the "Senator from Formosa"?
Senator Smith. The Communist press?
Mr. Lattimore. No. I never follow the Communist press.
3040 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Jenner. I want an answer to my question, and I want to
know in what press the witness has read that Senator Knowland is re-
ferred to as the "Senator from Formosa"?
Mr. Lattimore. I am sorry, Senator, I can't name offhand a spe-
cific paper in which I read it.
Senator Jenner. Not one, not even one newspaper ?
Senator Smith. And yet you make that statement ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is a term that I have been reading for months,
and also hearing on the radio.
Senator Jenner. What papers do you read, then? Maybe we can
get at it that way ?
Mr. Lattimore. I read regularly the New York Times and the
Baltimore
Senator Jenner. Has the New York Times, to refresh your mem-
ory, ever referred to Senator Knowland as the "Senator from For-
mosa" ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know. Senator. It would have to be looked
up.
Senator Jenner. You make this charge and yet you cannot name
one paper that referred to Senator Knowland as the "Senator from.
Formosa" ?
Mr. Lattimore. I can't name — I can tell you the papers I read.
Senator Jenner. But you do not recall any single newspaper ?
Mr. Lattimore. I cannot recall.
Senator Jenner. You thought it was a humorous reference, and yet
you did not get any humor and you cannot remember the humor that
you got from reading some newspapers ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, it is a very frequent reference — so fre-
quent that I would not associate it with any newspaper.
Senator Jenner. Do you read the Daily Worker ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Ferguson. Do you read the Compass ?
Senator Jenner. What paper do you read besides the New York;
Times?
Mr. Lattimore. I was trying to tell you when you interrupted me.
Senator Jenner. Please do, with qualifications.
Mr. Lattimore. I read the New York Times regularly and I read
the Baltimore Morning Sun regularly and I read the Washington
Post regularly and those are the only ones I read regularly.
Senator Jenner. Thank you.
Mr. Lattimore. Since I have characterized this also as a term that
appears on the radio, the radio programs to which I listen regu-
larly
Senator Jenner. Now, maybe some commentator. What commen-
tator have you heard who referred to it?
Mr. Lattimore. The 6 o'clock news broadcast of the CBS in the
evening.
Senator Jenner. Can you name one commentator, then, among all
of your news broadcasts that you have listened to, who referred to
the Senator from California as the "Senator from Formosa"?
Senator O'Conor. The witness should be allowed to answer.
Senator Jenner. He answered on the newspapers and now this is
a new question and I am asking what commentators.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3041
Senator O'Conor. I think that is in order, but the witness ought to
Tje permitted to complete his answer.
Senator Jenner. He had completed the newspapers and switched
over to radio news broadcasts.
Senator O'Conor. Now, the question is as to what radio broadcasts
you customarily listen to, and the commentators.
Mr. Lattimore. The programs and commentators to which I cus-
tomarily listen are the 6 o'clock CBS news program in the evening
which includes a number of commentators or news broadcasters ; and
I listen to the 8 o'clock CBS news in the morning ; and then going back
to the evening, I occasionally listen at 7 o'clock to Fulton Lewis, Jr.
Senator Jenner. Did you ever hear Fulton Lewis, Jr., refer to the
Senator from California as the "Senator from Formosa" ?
Mr. Lattimore. I can't recall.
Senator Jenner. Can you recall any commentator on any of the
news broadcasts
Senator O'Conor. I do think, now — had you finished your answer?
Mr. Lattimore. I had not.
Senator O'Conor. I think that you should finish it.
Mr. Lattimore. At 7 : 15 I usually listen to Elmer Davis.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever hear Elmer Davis say that?
Senator O'Conor. I think-
Mr. Lattimore, I think, I wouldn't say for certain, I think it is
quite likely.
Senator Ferguson. I would think so.
Senator O'Conor. Let us be in order.
Mr. Lattimore. At 7 : 45, I usually listen to Mr. Ed Murrow's pro-
gram, again on CBS. And that is all of the programs I listen to regu-
larly and the papers that I read regularly.
Mr. FoRTAS. Can you give this witness a rest, please ?
Senator O'Conor."^ We will take a recess for 10 minutes.
Senator Ferguson. I think he needs a rest. The record clearly
sliows he needs a rest.
Senator O'Conor. We will take a recess for 10 minutes.
(Short recess.)
(At this point Senator McCarran assumed the chair.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Is there any question pending ?
Senator Smith. I asked Mr. Lattimore to name the persons who
constituted the China lobby and he named three or four, and I would
like to get the additional names of those he regards first as to the China
lobby.
The Chairman. You may answer, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I tried to begin my answer with great
care
The Chairman. Let us name the Senators who belong to the China
lobby, is that the question ?
Senator Smith. The persons who constituted the China lobby, and
among them he named one Senator, and I would like to have him name
the others, because he said or he referred to the State Department vic-
tims of the China lobby, and I want to know who constitutes the China
lobbj'-, the personnel, and the names.
The Chairman. That calls for names, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. All right. Senator.
3042 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Before naming any further names-
The Chairman. That calls for names, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I'll mention any further names only with
great reluctance
The Chairman. Your statement in that regard will be stricken
from the record. Name the names. That is what the answer is.
Mr. Lattimore. I am naming these names with the greatest reluc-
tance.
The Chairman. That is stricken from the record. Call the names.
Mr. Lattimore. I have characterized people as being
The Chairman. Call the names, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. In the lobb}' as being different
The Chairman. Do you want to answer the question or don't you ?
Mr. Lattimore, Senator, before
The Chairman. I ask you to answer the question now.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, yes, I will answer the question.
The Chairman. Your other statements will be stricken from the
record, and you are called upon to name names, and now do so.
Mr. Lattimore. Very respectfully, Senator, you are
The Chairman. Let's name the names and answer the question of
the Senator from North Carolina.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I have mentioned Mr. Alfred Kohlberg.
I understand that an employee of the China lobby has been a Miss
Freda Utley. I understand that there is a great deal of private
Chinese money in this country
Senator Smith. Now, that does not answer my question.
The CnAiitMAN. The last part of the answer will be stricken from
the record.
Senator Smith. He says, "State Department victims of the China
lobby." Now, "victim" is not a very nice designation of someone who
has been the victim, and I want to know who are the China lobby?
The Chairman. You are calling for names.
Now, names is what your answer is.
Mr. Lattimore. I understand that, Mr.
The Chairman. Your answer calls for names, please, Mr. Latti-
more, and certainly you
Mr. Lattimore. Members of the Chinese Embass3^ And that is all
of the names that I will name.
The Chairman. Any further questions, Senator?
Senator Smith. So that those names are the names of the persons
who constitute the China lobby — and I see you are getting reinforce-
ment from your wife behind you. Now, I am asking you to name the
names of the persons that constitute the China lobby, and you have
given us three or four. Noav, are they all that constitute the China
lobby?
Mr. Lattimore. May I speak to my counsel.
Senator Smith. I am asking you for the names.
The Chairman. You can answer that question "yes" or "no."
Mr. Lattimore. I have been told. Senator
The Chairman. Will you please answer the question? Never
mind what you have been told. Answer the question "yes" or "no,"
and then explain, i^^ you wish.
Mr. Fortas. The witness has asked permission to consult with
counsel.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3043
The Chairman. If he wants to consult with counsel, he may con-
sult.
Mr. FoRTAS. Now may he?
The Chairman. He certainly may. I have told you that.
Mr. FoRTAS, Thank you.
The Chairman. He is not going to get fortification from the rear.
Senator Smith. That has been going on all morning, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. That is going to stop.
I will have to ask for quiet in the rear of the room, please.
What is your question, Senator Smith ?
Senator Smith. I asked him to name the names of the persons con-
stituting the China lobby to which he refers here in his statement
on page 22.
Mr. Lattimore. I should name Mr. George Sokolsky, a newspaper
columnist, and I believe radio commentator. I should name the
Chicago Tribune
*to^
Senator Smith. Wliat names, individually ?
Mr. Lattimore. Editorially.
Senator Smith. Who ? The persons, I called for, the names of the
persons constituting the China lobby as referred to by you on page 22
of your statement.
Mr. Lattimore. May I, Senator, again refer to the fact that I started
out by saying that I consider that any individual may be classified
with the China lobby in entirely different degrees and under entirely
different connotations.
Senator Smith. Any kind of degree. Mr. Lattimore, you have
made a serious charge here, that the State Department employees have
been made victims of the China lobby. Now, that is a statement
you have made, manifestly for the purpose of prejudicing somebody.
Now, I want to know who constitutes this China lobby that you
apparently mean to say has been guilty of all sorts of insidious influ-
ence on the State Department. Now, who are the persons ? Now, if
you did not know any persons who constituted the lobby, manifestly
this is an improper statement to put before the committee. If you
do know who constitutes the China lobby, you are entitled to tell us ;
and that is all I am asking for, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. That calls for names, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. I should name a Mr. Victor Laskey
Senator Watkins. Tell us where he lives, if you have that infor-
mation.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know where he lives, sir. I have seen ar-
ticles of his. I think that that is all I can recall at the moment,
Senator.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Senator Smith. The persons you have named are the persons to
whom you attribute the influence that produced the State Department
victims ?
Mr. Lattimore. Those are all of the names that I can recall under
this kind of hammering, Senator.
Senator Ferguson. Well, now, Mr. Chairman, I think that that is
uncalled for, to Senator Smith's question, and I think it ought to be
stricken from the record, the remark that he has been hammered. He
has had a recess to remember names. Certainly to request a man
3044 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
over and over, when he refuses to answer and fails to answer, to get
names of an organization, I do not think that that ought to be classed
by any witness before this committee as "hammering."
The Chairman. I entirely agree with you. Senator. The remark
will be stricken from the record. I hope that that will not occur
again.
Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman, I think — and, of course, I have
no objection how he refers to the questions I ask him, because I cer-
tainly started in this hearing with not any feeling against Mr. Lat-
timore whatsoever, and I am going to maintain my composure, and my
effort in fairness, regardless of his truculence and his petulance or his
arrogance, and I expect to continue listening to what the evidence is.
But when such flimsy statements as this are m^^e, and then he cannot
back it up, I think it is something that we should consider as to
whether or not we should throw this whole statement of his out, and
then proceed by way of direct question and direct answer from Mr.
Lattimore, because we have seen this whole statement is full of such
jumbled statements as that, that are not backed up; and when you
specifically inquire as to the foundation for his statement
Senator Ferguson. May I just say in relation to that, that is the
reason this hearing is taking so long. If we were to admit these gen-
eralizations, such as the one about the China lobby and the fact that
the State Department is a victim of the China lobby, and many other
statements that have been shown to be hearsay, and not founded upon
fact, then we would be admitting the truth of all of these statements
and these conclusions. That is the difficulty that we are facing here,
with a long cross-examination to try to ascertain what the facts are,
and what this man actually knows. It is unfair to a record.
Senator Smith. I think what he says is a reflection upon the State
Department and upon the people who are honestly trying to operate
the State Department in the best manner, and for him to characterize
these four or five people as the people who have made victims of State
Department employees. But that is all I have to say.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Ferguson. I had one other question that I wanted to ask
the witness. He refers to Senator Knowland as the "Senator from
Formosa," and have you ever seen an editorial entitled, "Senator from
Formosa" ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I remember, no.
Senator Ferguson. You think that you might have?
Mr. Latitmore. No, I don't think that I have.
Senator Ferguson. You realize that when you say that a Senator
is from a foreign land, that it is a serious charge against the Senator ?
Mr. Lattimore. I should think that that would vary with the cir-
cumstances, Senator.
Senator Ferguson. If you felt that he was, then it would not be a
serious charge?
Mr. Lattimore. I should feel that it varies according to whether
the name or the term is applied humorously or hostilely, et cetera.
Senator Ferguson. Do you think to accuse a man of being a Senator
from a foreign country is humorous or could be humorous ?
The Chairman. When it is made under oath ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes ; in a serious investigation.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3045
Mr, Lattimore. Senator, I did not call him that under oath. I
referred to the fact
The Chairman. You did call him that under oath, because you are
under oath all of the time here, Mr. Lattimore, and so anything you
have said is under oath, and your counsel will so advise you.
Mr. Lattimore. I referred to him in quotations, not as my charac-
terization.
Senator Ferguson. And I said on this record, I gave you a question,
that that was the Cominunist line. Now, I will ask you again : Did
you ever see it in an editorial, "Senator from Formosa"?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I can remember.
Senator Ferguson. To back up what I said about it being the Com-
munist line, I want to show you that editorial and ask you whether
you ever saw it? Don't read the slip on it; I turned it down.
Mr. Lattimore. I haven't read the slip. Senator.
Senator Ferguson. I know you didn't, because I asked you not to,
but read the editorial, and I will ask you if you ever saw it?
Mr. Lattimore. I should like to ask that when I am shown written
material — —
The Chairman. You can answer that "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Lattimore. That I be allowed to see the whole thing.
Senator Ferguson. I want you to read the editorial.
The Chairman. That calls for a categorical answer, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. This I never saw.
Senator Ferguson. Now look at the slip.
Mr. Lattimore. "San Francisco, Calif. — Peoples World."
Senator Ferguson. Do you know that that is a Communist sheet?
Mr. Lat'timore. I believe that was stated at the Tydings hearings
a couple of years ago, and I don't know the paper myself.
Senator Ferguson. You learned, then, in the Tydings committee
that that was a Communist sheet ?
Mr. Lattimore. I heard that it was stated that it was a Communist
sheet.
Senator Ferguson. Well, they end the editorial by saying, refer-
ring to the Senator from California, "the Senator from Formosa";
and in another place they use it as "Senator from Formosa" ; and the
title is "Senator from Formosa." And they say : "Knowland has been
the Senator from Formosa rather than from California anyway."
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I have already said that I do not read
the Communist press.
Senator Ferguson. I will introduce that into the record to prove
that it is the Communist line of referring to a distinguished Senator
from this body as the Senator from a foreign land, Formosa.
The Chairman. It will be inserted in the record.
(The editorial referred to was marked "Exhibit 467," and is read
in full below by Senator Ferguson :)
Senator Fkom Formosa
Democratic leaders at their recent State executive committee meeting vied
for the dubious honor of controlling a pro-Truman delegation to their party's
national convention.
But they did not pay the slightest attention to selecting a candidate to run
for United States Senate and to preparing a major campaign to defeat Senator
William F. Knowland, the GOP incumbent.
2046 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
It is an open secret that the Democratic leadership ha« g^ven no real opposi-
tion Governor Warren for years. It is also a fact that most ot tne party s
bosses did not try too hard to boat Senator Richard Nixon in 1950
'Xv they seem to be preparing only a token <^^-f^f ?^fi?^Sfo,r^urPa?ty
And there could be no clearer measure of the bankruptcy ^f the Democratic Farty
leadership in California than its complacency in permitting a State with a
great pro^gressive tradition to be represented by two of the worst and most
'TnowHndTa^s beeS\hl"senator from Formosa rather than from California
«nvw.^v His nrimarv concern seems to have been representing Chiang Kai-shek
fnCsen?Sl£ has been a major advocate of an all-out United States war
again'st CWna, a^d has been prepared to expend millions of American lives to
restore the corrupt Chiang regime to power. ^ ^ ... •„ -cr^ >,aa
Knowland has flagrantly misrepresented the people of Calif ornia. He hag
hPPn for everv reactionary and repressive measure such as the Taft-Hartley
and iScairan IcS And he has been against price control and rent control
nnd pvpn the most modest social-security measures.
And he can^e defeated. He can be swept out of office in a wave of revulsion
ag^ntt Ws war poSs and his flagrant advocacy of vested interests m tho
^Zt'one thing is sure. That job can't be left to the DemocraUc Party an^^^^
the committee it has picked to survey candidates. It is a .lob f?r laboi, for toe
Negro people, for the masses of people who want Knowland defeated. We
belfeve tSciO, AFL, and independent unions should take the lead in ooinmg
forces behind a strong progressive candidate who will not be a dummy for
Knotvland, who will really go out to win, who will really repi;esent the people^
and will really realize the potential of mass opposition to the Senator from
Formosa.
Mr. Lattimork. Mr. Chairman, mav T answer?
Senator Ferguson. I did not ask a question. . ^ ^i ^
Mr. Lattimore. May [ ask that the record show at this ponit that
I repeat that I do not read the Communist press?
]Mr. SouRwiNE. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman?
Mr Lattimore, earlier, over a space of some 30 or 3o minutes, there
was discussion of what was referred to at some times as a recommenda-
tion with regard to the United States getting out of Formosa.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes. -, . , ^i 4. • j.
Mr SouRWiNE. I want to be sure the record is clear on that point.
Is the point you were attempting to make that you merely, during that
period in 19 i9, referred to what you found or felt to be the opinion m
Washington, and that you were not yourself recommending to the
State Department that the United States get out of Formosa i
Mr. Lattimore. Not completely, Mr. Sourwme.
Mr. SoURWiNE. Would you clarify that, please? Did you recom-
mend to the State Department that the United States get out ot
Formosa? . , --i. • t i
Mr Lattimore. At the time that this article was written, m July
of 1949, I was reflecting State Department opinion. By the end ot
1949 I had accepted that opinion as the established policy.
The Chairman. What is the question, please ?
(The question was read by the reporter.)
The Chairman. That calls for a categorical answer, and I want
the answer "yes" or "no," and then you may explain afterward.
Mr. Lattimore. May I say "yes," with amplification ?
The Chairman. You may explain your "yes" after you say it, or
"no" after you say it.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
The Chairman. All right.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3047
Mr, Lattimore. At the end of 1949, in a memorandum that I wrote
preparatory to a conference that was called by the Department of
State in, I believe, November of 1949, as I recall, there was a para-
graph saying that we should liquidate our position in Formosa as rap-
idly as possible, or words to that effect.
Mr, SouRwiNE. Is that the only occasion on which you recommended
to the State Department that we get out of Formosa ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is the only one I recall, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you regard Formosa as an undesirable form
of gover]iment, a monarchist form of government, which was not
worthy of our support?
Mr, Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you ever say so ?
Mr. Lattimore. It was not a monarchist form of government, Mr.
Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you ever say so ?
Mr. Lattimore. That it was a monarchist
The Chairman. Did you ever say so ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am just asking for clarification of the question.
Did I ever say that South Korea was a monarchist form of govern-
ment ?
Mr. Sourwine. I am talking about Korea, Senators.
Mr. Lattimore. No; I don't believe I could have ever said that
Korea was a monarchist form of government.
Mr. Sourwine. And just to make the record clear, it is Korea we
are talking about when I asked you if you recommended that the State
Department get out of it ; was that your understanding ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Sourwine. And you say that you did so recommend in some-
thing that you wrote in November of 1949 ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think I wrote it in November of 1949, that was
the date.
Mr. Sourwine. Now, you have here today on several occasions used
language which sounded as though you intended to convey the im-
pression that you had not made such a recommendation to the State
Department. Did you at tlie time intend to convey that recommenda-
tion to the committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. At that time I intended to convey that impression
only with regard to that particular newspaper article.
_ Mr. SoiTrwine. You weren't expanding the answer beyond the spe-
cific question that was asked you ?
Mr. Lattimore. I was not intending to ; no.
Mr. Sourwine. And if you conveyed a broader impression, that was
not your intention ?
IVIr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Sourwine. Now, did you sir, attend a conference at the State
Department on far eastern policy in October of 1949 ?
Mr. Lattimore. I will accept your date, Mr. Sourwine. I thought it
was November, but it may have been October.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you take part in that conference orally ?
Mr. Lattimore. I did.
3048 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you, in the course of that conference, say :
* * * I think we ought to give a little more attention to the problem of
Korea. Korea appears to be of such minor importance that it tends to get over-
looked by Korea may turn out to be a country that has more effect upon the
situation than its apparent weight would indicate.
I don't know how it can be done but I should feel very much easier about the
prospects of success of American policy in the Far East as a whole if we can
proceed or arrange our new relationship with Japan, whatever it turns out to be,
by disengaging ourselves as far as possible from southern Korea.
It has been widely stated, and I don't know if it is true, but it may be open to
criticism — that Korea is not a decisive strategic position. Certainly on the
political side Korea is likely to be an increasing embarrassment. Southern
Korea unfortunately is an extremely unsavory police state. The chief power
is concentrated in the hands of the people who were the collaborators of Japan
and therefore Korea represents something which does not exist in Manchuria
and North China ; namely, if the Chinese are willing to trade with Japan it is
because they no longer fear that trade with Japan means Japanese strategic
control.
Southern Korea, under the present regime, could not resume closer economic
relations with Japan without a complete reinfiltration of the old Japanese
control and associations.
Korea is a danger to us in other respects. I think that throughout Asia the
potential democracies — people who would like to be democratic if they could are
more numerous and important than the actual democrats. The kind of regime
that exists in southern Korea is a terrible discouragement to would-be democrats
throughout Asia who would like to become democrats by association with the
United States. Korea stands as a terrible warning of what can happen.
Did you say that, sir ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I said that ; and may I ask if that is the full
text of what I said on the subject of Korea ?
(A printed document was handed to the witness.)
Mr, SouRAVTNE. If there is any additional portion that you would
like to have inserted in the record, preceding that or following that,
I will ask that the chairman insert it.
Mr. Lattimore. I am merely asking, because I can't recall offliand
whether I reverted to the subject of Korea later in the discussion.
Mr. Sourwine. This is in our record in full, sir, and if you will
notice, I was reading from page 1677 of volume 5 of our hearings,
which is the official State Department transcript of these conferences.
The whole thing is in the record, and the record will show, as you will
find if you examine it, that you adverted to the subject of Korea.
Mr. Lattimore. That is right, and I just wanted to make sure
whether that was the only occasion on which I adverted to it. My
wife has here, I think, a separate transcript of everything that I said
at the conference, and it would be easier to check in that ; and may I
ask permission to check that ?
Mr. SouR^\^NE. If there is anything that the witness cares to offer
later on in connection with that, the Chair can rule on it at that time.
The Chairman. I think so. We will go on now.
Mr. Lattimore. As far as this particular reference goes, Mr. Sour-
wine, that is certainly what I said, and I stand by it.
Mr. SouRAviNE. Mr. Lattimore, I just would like to clarify one
minor point in the record. At the bottom of page 20, you made a ref-
erence to Mr. John Stewart Service, Mr. O. Edmund Clubb, and Mr.
John Carter Vincent, and you compared them with Mr. George Ken-
nan ; and I want to ask you if you really mean that any of those three
men could adequately fill the same relative position with respect to
the Far East that Mr. Kennan fills with respect to Russia?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 304 i)
Mr. Lattimore. May I recall the original wording, "would have
heen capable of holding"? I will amplify that to say "capable of
developing into that kind of man." With that amplification ; yes, I
believe that,
Mr. SouRWiNE. You refuse to accept it the way I stated it, Mr.
Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattlmore. Would you repeat the way you stated it?
Mr. SouRWiNE. I will try.
The Chairman. The reporter will read it.
Mr, Sourwine. I wonder if there was something in the w^ay that
I stated it that you rejected.
(The question referred to was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Lattimore. I will accept that. I would prefer to state things
in my own words.
Senator Ferguson, Mi^ht I inquire there, Mr. Chairman ?
After the Loyalty Review Board of the President has found rea-
sonable doubt as to Mr. Service, and you read the opinion, do you
still say that that is a correct statement ?
Mr, Lattimore, I still say that that is a correct statement. Senator,
and I return to my characterization yesterday of the wording of that
"reasonable doubt" ruling as an undesirable one for the handling of
Government personnel.
Senator Ferguson, For that reason, you place no credence in the
Board's finding, is that correct, because you do not believe in the
principle upon which it is based ?
Mr. Lattimore. May I say "No," and then qualify it ?
Senator Ferguson, Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. No, I don't. I think that it is extremely detrimental
to the morale of Government personnel when a man is subjected to
repeated jeopardy, and after many specific clearances is finally got rid
of under a new and vague wording.
Senator Ferguson. Have you ever accepted the conviction of Alger
Hiss as being a proper conviction ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I have. I also accept his attempt to get a
fresh trial as a proper procedure mider American law.
Senator Ferguson. And have you ever expressed any objection to
the Smith Act, the one under which the 11 Communists were con-
victed ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am sorry — first, no, I have not expressed any
objection to it. I should add that I have never read it.
Mr. Sourwine. Might I inquire, Mr, Chairman?
Mr. Lattimore, going to page 23 of your statement, you will recall
that you had discussed three interpretations of what you said were the
"records of the State Department victims of the China lobby," and
then you talked of the central problem of the subcommittee ; and then
you said :
Let us take a look, an honest look, at this preposterous theory of a secret spider
web with me at the center of it.
Now, before I ask this question, I want to lay a foundation by asking
you, do you know what I mean when I refer to the "referent" for a
pronoun ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am sorry; no.
3050 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. If you use the pronoun "he," and then I say, "What
is the referent for that pronoun," I mean who were you referring to
when you said "he."
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Now, may we use it in that sense in connection with
the question I am about to ask?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. liight in tlie next sentence you wrote, and had mime-
ographed :
First and foremost, my acquaintance with those State Department officials can
best be described as sporadic.
Who did you mean by "those"? What is the referrent for "those"?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, I corrected this text.
Mr. Sourwine. I understand tliat, but you had "those" originally,
and that is wliat you luid mimeographed ; and I want to know what
you mean by "those"?
Mr. Lattimore. I meant originally my acquaintance with State De-
partment officials.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. What State Department officials ?
Mr. Lattimore. With State Department officials.
Mr. Sourwine. You said "those," and now I want the referent for
"those."
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I meant, when I wrote it, to refer to mj
acquaintances with State Department officials.
Mr. Sourwine. What State Department officials?
Mr. Lattimore. Then I read "those"
The Chairman, Now, that calls for the names of the officials, that
is the question : What State Department officials ?
Mr. Lattimore. I meant State Department officials in general with
whom I was acquainted.
Mr. Sourwine. That is obviously untrue, Mr. Lattimore, because
the context of your own statement shows that you differentiate be-
tween these men and other State Department people. Now, I want
to find the referent in your own statement with regard to "those."
Do you go back or were you referring to men who were in the so-
called secret spider web, or do you go further back to the paragraph
above it and find "men who have had much to do with determining
our far eastern policy," or do you go still further back to find the
referent for "those"? Obviously it must appear before the use of
the pronoun.
Mr. Lattimore. My intention was to refer to State Department in
general, as people in general; on page 22, for example, "the State
Department victims of the China lobby."
Then after I had written it, I saw that the word "those" would
easily be interpreted as meaning a reference only to three men, and
I therefore, in order to carry out my intention, struck the word
"those."
Mr. Sourwine. How did you mean it, sir, when you originally
wrote it? Did you intend it as a reference to a particular group of
men ?
Mr. Lattimore. I intended it as a reference to the whole far eastern
group.
Mr. Souravine. What do you mean by the "far-eastern group"?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3051
Mr. Lattimore. I mean those in the Department of State primarily
trained as far-eastern experts, especially China experts.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Are yon telling this committee that you did not
have a particular group of men in mind when you said "those" ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is the particular group that I had in mind.
Mr. Sourwine. You mean all of the State Department people who
were trained in the far-eastern affairs?
Mr. Latiimore. That is the general group I meant.
Mr. SouRWiNE. But in the next sentence, sir, you wrote : "I met all
of them first in China", didn't you ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is why I changed it.
Mr. Sourwine. You have changed it, but isn't that what you orig-
inally wrote?
Mr. Lattimore. Because I realized that some of the China group
that I had met, China group of the State Department that I had met,
I had not met first in China, and therefore I changed the wording to
make it inclusive.
Mr. SouRvriNE. Mr. Lattimore, didn't you, when you first wrote
this, have in mind a particular group of State Department officials^
and wasn't that a group of State Department officials all of whom you
had first met in China?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Now, let us go down a little farther
Mr. Lattimore. May I amplify that?
The Chairman. I think that you have gone into that before the
question was propounded to you, and I think that that is far enough,
I hope, Mr. Lattimore, that you might obey the decorum of this com-
mittee, and when you are cut off by the chairman of the committee^
tliat is the end of your statement, and your statement is on file in
this committee, and you are under oath.
Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman, pursuing Mr. Sourwine's question
just a bit, I would like to call attention to the fact that in the same
paragraph there is further evidence by language which seems to me
to substantiate the contention made b}' Mr. Sourwine, and I call your
attention to the statement :
Foreigners living in the small foreign communities of China saw each other
frequently —
NoAv, that is not the whole State Department. It is those in China.
* * * and my wife and I were on friendly terms with them there. But it is
also important that you recognize the limitations of our acquaintanceship with
them and other Foreign Service personnel.
Evidently he is referring to some particular group in China, and
then he adds, "and other Foreign Service personnel." Then —
''When they were transferred" — that is "they," and not the whole
Foreign Service — "Avere transferred to other posts we lost touch with
each other * * *."
Now, who does he mean ?
"* * * when we again found ourselves in the same city" — which
apparently he did — "we were glad to see each other, but we seldom
corresponded with them, or they with us."
I submit the comment that it certainly bears out the contention of
Mr. Sourwine. Those were not changed in the paragraph, and I read
them just as they are in tliere now.
3052 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. When we get down to that question, may I inquire
whether you made those changes on the advice of counsel ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I did not.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Now, in the next paragraph, sir, you say :
"As for my acquaintance with these men * * * "
Were you referring to certain men?
Mr. Lattimore. I was referring to the general group of those
working on China particularly.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You didn't mean the same men that you referred
to in the paragraph above vv^hen you wrote "those"?
Mr. Lattimore. I meant in the paragraph above, when I wrote
"those," the same that I meant in the paragraph below : The general
group of people working in China, some of whom I met first in China,
and some of whom I met first elsewhere, although they were China
service people.
Mr. Sourwine. You say that the referent for those various pro-
nouns is not the phrase in the second paragraph above, that is, the
first paragraph from the top of page 23, "the men who have had much
to do with determining our far-eastern policy"?
Mr. Lattimore. It would certainly include them.
Mr. Sourwine. Now, let us go back to the paragraph at the bottom
of page 22 : " * * * a web of men who were attempting to serve a
Communist cause * * * " Is that a referent for the "those" and
"these" and the "them" ?
Mr. Lati^imore. It would include them, and others.
Mr. Sourwine. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Let the witness con-
tinue the reading.
The Chairman. He may continue the reading.
Mr. Lattimore. Aside from these social contacts, my Government
experience has been limited and my contacts with anything that could
be called policy making (or attempts to influence policy) extremely
rare. The record was fully brought out in the hearings before the
Tydings subcommittee, and is as follows :
1. In 1941 and 1942 I was personal political adviser to Chiang
Kai-shek. This was on the nomination of President Roosevelt; but
I was in the personal service of Chiang Kai-shek; not of the Chinese
Government : not of Mr. Roosevelt ; not of the American Government.
I Avas, in effect, charged with liaison functions between Chiang Kai-
shek and the White House. My first appointment, in Jul}^ 1941, was
for 6 months. I was then reappointed, to serve indefinitely. When
I resigned at the end of 1942 to enter a war job in this country, Chiang
graciously asked me to consider myself on "reverse lend-lease," and
to return to his service at any time.
In February 1942, I returned to this country for several months
during which Chiang asked me to familiarize myself with the han-
dling in Washington of American aid to China, During this time
my liaison with the White House, on Roosevelt's instructions, was
through Mr. Lauchlin Currie, an assistant to the President. I lived
in Baltimore but came over to Washington several days a week and
Mr. Currie offered me the use of an office adjacent to his.
The big problem at this time was to get supplies to China for use
in the war against Japan, and on Chiang's instructions I was in com-
munication both with Mr. Currie, who was handling this matter for
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3053
the President, and with officials of the various Chinese missions in
Washington.
It was apparently these circumstances that formed the basis for
the charge — as if there was some sinister signijQcance in it — that I
had "a desk in the State Department," from which the inference has
been made that I influenced the State Department. Currie's office, and
other "V^liite House executive offices, were in the building which also
housed the State Department and the Bureau of the Budget. I con-
fess I did not think of this when the charge was originally made. The
fact of the matter is that the State Department were quite resentful
of Roosevelt's use of his executive assistants, like Currie, to provide
personal channels through which Chiang communicated with Roose-
velt, and this resentment extended to me. Consequently, I doubt if I
would have been very welcome in the State Department during this
period.
2. In 1943 I was Deputy Director of the Overseas Branch of the
Office of War Information in charge of Pacific operations. As the
title implies, I was responsible for operations, not policy. In 1944
I came to Washington, still with the same title, and during that year
I Avent out to Australia, to set up OWI operations under General Mac-
Arthur. You will recall that General ThorjDe, MadArthur's chief of
Counterintelligence, testified before the Ty dings committee (trans-
cript, p. 1215) that he thoroughly investigated me in connection with
this mission, and found nothing subversive in my record. In fact,
he was kind enough to say, "Were I called on to commit my personal
safety and that of my command on information supplied by Dr.
Lattimore, I would do so with confidence that he would always act as
a loyal American citizen." I submit as an exhibit the statement made
to the Tydings committee by General Thorpe in 1950.
May i submit that, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. This offer will be withheld until the Chair can go
over it.
Mr. Lattimore. In the same year, 1944, as a representative of OWI,
I accompanied Vice President Wallace on his mission in Siberia and
China. In the fall of that year, I returned to my university work,
eoming to Washington only 1 or 2 days a week, as a consultant to OWI.
I have been accused by Budenz of exerting a Communist influence
on the Vice President of the United States when I accompanied him
on his mission to Siberia and China. This barefaced accusation has
"been so effectively disproved by the testimony of Mr. Wallace and of
Mr. Alsop that it is unnecessary for me to repeat their evidence here.
Mr. Wallace in his recent letter to the President also confirmed the
fact that I did not act — or, indeed, attempt to act — as his political
adviser on the mission in question.
3. In the winter of 1945-46 I spent between 3 and 4 months in Japan
with the Pauley mission, which was making a survey of American rep-
arations policy in Japan. Using my connection with this mission as
a springboard, a whole new series of accusations have been parroted
here concerning ideas I am supposed to have advocated concerning
Japan.
Mr. Dooman, Mr. McGovern, and the always obliging Budenz have
stated, and your questions to other witnesses have inferred, that I rec-
ommended a policy of deindustrializing Japan — a policy which they
in chorus labeled as Communist. Mr. Dooman, Mr. ]McGovern, Mr.
8S348— 52— pt. 9 11
3054 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Colegrove, and your counsel, Mr. Morris, have also, in cliorus, dis-
torted some ideas which I expressed before the end of the war con-
cerning the Japanese Emperor.
It is a most interesting coincidence, if one could call it that, that
whereas McCarthy's charges of my subversive influence on Govern-
ment policy, based on Alfred Kohlberg and dutifully echoed by Louis
Budenz, were concerned almost solely with our China policy, this new
note was suddenly sounded by no less than four of your witnesses —
that my policy recommendations on Japan were also sinister. Even
the phrases used by the four men were similar. Mr. Dooman claimed
that the Pauley report, which I had written, "provided for turning
Japan into a pasture." Mr. McGovern testified that it was my policy
to have "a bloody peace in Japan" ; "to completely reduce Japan to
vagary and impotence"; "to reduce Japan back to an agricultural
country and destroy all Japanese industry." To have Budenz join this
chorus is most surprising of all because in 1950 he testified about me
for a whole day and never even mentioned my ideas about Japan, But
before this committee he obligingly came through and stated that I
had aided the "Communist conspiracy" for a "hard peace in Japan."
All of these statements are false. Now I do not want to appear to
subscribe to the charge that anybody who advocated such a policy is
a Communist. But the fact is "that neither the Pauley mission nor I
personally ever advocated the deindustrialization of Japan. When I
was in Japan with the Pauley mission at the end of 1945 I did play
a major part in drafting a reparations report, in close conference with
Mr. Pauley and based on the assessments of the technical members of
the mission, working with data supplied by General MacArthur's
headquarters. This report was anything but a punitive document
and could not possibly be described as aiming at a "bloody peace."
It supports none of these ridiculous yarns. Its principal recommenda-
tions were to use the surplus war industry of Japan as reparations to
aid the industrialization of countries in Asia that had been
plundered by Japan ; to prevent Japan from controlling the economic
life of Asia ; and to leave Japan enough industry to provide for trade
and the purchase of necessary imports.
Even before the end of the war, when hatred of Japan was at its
height, I wrote in Solution in Asia, 1945, page 184 :
We must avoid confusing industrial demilitarization with disindustrialization.
In a Japan deprived of all industry, people would starve by the million * * *
we do not hate them to the point of starving several millions of them. Japan
must be left with some industry.
Neither Solution in Asia nor the Pauley report is a classified docu-
ment. They clearly show that whoever steered Mr. Dooman, Mr. Cole-
grove, Mr. "McGovern, and Mr. Budenz to brand these recommenda-
tions as Communist was far, far off the beam and completely lacking
in scruple.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore has referred to this Solution in
Asia, and I recall testimony in this record — and I do not know whether
the witness has seen it — of an FBI agent here before this committee,
and I wonder whether we could have that so that it would appear here?
Do you have that?
Mr. Morris. Yes -I have it.
The Chairman. Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Lattimore.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3055
Senator Ferguson. Just a moment. I would like to refer to this
testimony.
Mr. Morris. We have it, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Ferguson. I would like to have it go in the record at this
point. Have the clerk read it, and identify the witness.
Mr. Mandel. This is the testimony of Harvey M. Matusow, in ex-
ecutive session, before this committee on February 13, 1952.
The Chairman. Who was he or what was he ?
Mr. Mandel. He gives his career as follows in the testimony:
I joined the Communist Party in October of 1947. A year preceding that I
joined the ATD, American Youth for Democracy, Communist Party youth.
Mr. Morris. He joined the Communist Party on behalf of the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation ; isn't that right, Mr. Mandel ?
Mr. Mandel. I am reading in sequence, and I haven't come to that
jet:
In 1948 I worked in full-time employment of the Jefferson School, in the
Jefferson School book shop.
Further :
In Marcli of 1949, I became a full-time employee of the Communist Party
of New York City, worked at the county headquarters
Mr. Fortas. Is he reading the transcript ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
Mr. Fortas. He seems to be skipping about.
Mr. Morris. Was not Mr. Matusow at that time an employee of
the FBI?
Mr. Mandel. On page 6 of this testimony it says :
In the summer of 1950, I went to New Mexico, to Taos, N. Mex., and at that
time I had contacted the FBI, and was furnishing information to them and
still in the party, and furnishing information to them in relation to party activ-
ities near Los Alamos, at Taos, N. Mex.
Senator Ferguson. At one time he was in the employ of the FBI,
as an agent?
Mr. Mandel. Yes, sir.
Senator Ferguson. What does he say about the Solution in Asia,
as far as the Communists are concerned?
Mr. Mandel. It says:
Mr. Mandel. Mr. Matusow, we are primarily interested in the Institute of
Pacific Relations and matters pertaining to the Far East in connection with
the Communist Party.
In the course of your activities, did you ever handle any literature of the
Institute of Pacific Relations?
Mr. Matusow. Yes. In 1948, when I worked at the Jefferson School book
shop, and during the periods of 1949 when I worked at the book shop on Sunday
nights to supply literature to the various lecturers they had on their lecture
program I handled certain material put out by the Institute of Pacific Relations.
Mr. Mandel. Was this pamphlet one of those pieces of literature that you
handled?
Mr. Matusow. That is correct. Our Job in the Pacific, by Henry A. Wallace.
Mr. Mandel. Who published that pamphlet?
Mr. Matusow. The Institute of Pacific Relations, American Council.
Mr. Mandel. How did you handle that pamphlet?
Then there is further discussion dealing with the pamphlet.
Senator Ferguson. Can you get down to the other one ?
Mr. Mandel. Yes.
3056 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Mandei,. Did the book shop ever promote any of the publications of
Owen Lattimore?
Mr. Matusow. Yes ; it did.
Mr. Mandel. Will you tell us about that?
Mr. Matusow. The books Solution in Asia, by Owen Lattimore', published by
Little Brown & Co.
Mr. Mandel. What year?
Mr. Matusow. 1945 — it was one of the books used in the book shop and sug-
gested reading for a background on the party line, the Communist Party line,
in Asia.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the Chair may wish to
order tliis entire record phiced in the record at this point.
Senator Ferguson. I move it be placed in tlie record, but I wanted
to have Mr. Lattimore know what was being said in this record about
his book.
Tlie Chairman. Is it your motion that this entire record be in-
cluded ?
Senator Ferguson. This witness' testimony be included in this
record.
The Chairman. Without objection, that will be the order.
(The testimony referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 469," and is as
follows:)
Exhibit No. 469
INTERNAL SECURITY
United States Senate,
Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal
Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws, of the
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, D. C, Wednesday, February 13, 1952.
executive session — confidential
Ths subcommittee met at 11 : 15 a. m., pursuant to notice, in room 457, Senate
Office Building, Senator V. Watkins presiding.
Present : Senator Watkins.
Also present : Benjamin Mandel, Director of Research.
Senator Watkins. The subcommittee will come to order. You may proceed.
Testimony of Hakvey M. Matusow, 1308 Grand Avenue, Dayton 6, Ohio
(Resumed)
Ml". Mandel. Will you give your name and address?
Mr. Matusow. Harvey M. Matusow, 1308 Grand Avenue, Dayton 6, Ohio.
Mr. Mandel. You have been previously sworn?
Mr. Matusow. That is correct.
Mr. Mandel. Will you give very briefly your career in the Communist Party?
Mr. Matusow. I joined the Communist Party in October of 1947. A year
preceding that I joined the AYD, American Youth for Democracy, Communist
Party youth organization.
In 1948. I worked in full time employment of the Jefferson School in the
Jefferson Book Shop.
Mr. Mandel. That is the Jefferson School of Social Science?
Mr. Matusow. That is correct, at 575 6th Avenue, in New York City.
In September of 1948 I became a full time employee of People's Sings, Inc., a
cultural organization of the Communist Pai'ty at the time.
Mr. Mandel. Whore were they located?
Mr. Matusow. 126 West 21st Street.
Mi-. IMandel. Why do you say it was a cultural organization of the Commu-
nist Party?
Mr. Matusow. Every or,t,^anizer and full time employee of that organization
were members of the Communist Party
Mr. Mandbx. To your knowledge?
INSTITUTE or PACIFIC RELATIONS 3057
Mr. Mattjsow. To my knowledge. I attended meetings with them as Com-
munists.
Mr. Mandel. Will you proceed with your other experiences in the Commu-
nist Party?
Mr. Matusow. While at People's Songs, I worked on a national scale with
the Progressive Party in their 1948 election campaign.
During this time I was also an organizer in the Communist youth movement
in New York County.
In March of 1949 I became a full time employee of the Communist Party of
New York City, worked at the county headquarters.
Mr. Mandel. Where were the county headquarters?
Mr. Matusow. 35 East 12th Street.
Mr. Mandel. Who was your superior?
Mr. Matusow. George Blake Charney.
Mr. Mandel. Does that complete your experience in the Communist Party?
Mr. Matusow. No, it does not. In May of 1949, under Communist instruc-
tions, I went to Puerto Rico, spent three weeks in Puerto Rico.
Mr. Mandel. Did you go to Puerto Rico under the auspices of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Matusow. That is correct.
Mr. Mandel. You were paid by the Communist Party?
Mr. Matusow. That is correct.
Mr. Mandel. And you did not go under some other committee or other
auspices?
Mr. Matusow. No, the Communist Party of New York County and New York
State, both.
Mr. Mandel. Will you describe briefly your trip to Porto Rico, what you did
there, and who accompanied you?
Mr. Matusow. Ted Bassett, who was then New York County Educational Di-
rector for tlie Communist Party, accompanied me to Porto Rico.
When we got to Puerto Rico, we met in closed party meetings with Caesar
Andreau, who was then General Secretary of the Porto Rican Communist Party ;
Juan Santo Rivers, who was Chairman of the Porto Rican Communisty Party.
We also met with Juan Sias Corales, Trade Union Secretary for the Commu-
nist Party of Porto Rico and General Secretary of the Communist union there,
either the CGT or UGT. A check will bear out which one it is.
His wife, Consuelo Sias Corales was Educational Director of the Communist
Party at Puerto Rico ; also Jane Speed Andreau, the wife of Caesar Andreau. She
had been a Communist Party organizer in Alabama and had attended Commu-
nist leadership schools in New York.
Mr. Mandel. Will you go on with your activities?
Mr. Matusow. We were instructed to set up a Communist Party newspaper
in Porto Rico or furnish the funds for the setting up of this newspaper.
Mr. Mandel. Did you take funds with you?
Mr. Matusow. No ; but we brought information down as to where the funds
could be gotten or how they could be gotten.
Mr. Mandel. Did you know the details of that?
Mr. Matusow. Yes. Well, basically the funds would be gotten when the
paper was ready for publication and the funds were needed, a Communist or-
ganizer would go from New York to Porto Rico with a bank draft or the cash
necessary.
Mr. Mandel. That was the arrangement you told the Porto Rican Communist
leaders?
Mr. Matusow. Correct. Now, we also had the question of getting a Porto
Rican delegate to the World Youth Festival to be held in Budapest, Hungary,
in 1949.
Eugene Cubues, the Communist youth leader of Porto Rico, was selected.
I was instructed to tell him that he was to apply for a passport to go to France,
Italy, and England. I was instructed to tell him to apply for the passport to go
to eastern European countries as a tourist. But before I left, I received all of
the necessary information, photographs and life history, to obtain a visa for him
to go to Hungary.
I turned that information over to the Communist Party oflSce in New York.
Mr. Mandel. Whom did you turn it over to?
Mr. Matusow. To actually the American Youth for a Free World, at 144
RIeecker Street.
Mr. Mandel. To what individual did you turn it over?
3058 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Matusow. To Lou Diskin, who at that time was C^'^JX^^^nd^'wiU^Siuc"
for New York State, the youth movement in New ^^^J^ State and ^^lthanstruc
tions for Cubues to pick up his visa for Hungary m P«"^' ^f^^^.^f.^^'^^^^anaged
In the summer of 1949 I was a full time employee of (^'^mP Unity- ^ ^"^"^^ed
the Communist Party book shop at that camp, Camp Unity Wingdale, %ew Yoi k^
In tlTe fall of 1949 that is, from September to December, I was a full time
employee of th'eWot-kers Book Shop at is East l^th Street in N^^^^^^ I then
carried out party assignments and was working m I.^^^^^ Communist Lab^r^Y^^^^
T^nmiP IS nt that time State Literature Director ot the Labor \outli league.
In thrsVSimer of W50 I went to New Mexico, to Taos, New Mexico and at
thn? time I hSl contacted the F. B. I. and was furnishing information to them,
and sun in ihe party furnishing information to them in relation to party ac-
"^{fMl^^^^^SJl^wr^e^ pSSily in^rested in the L^Utu^ of
Pacific R™ons and matters pertaining to the Far East in connection with the
"^TnX'com-se'o'f your activities, did you ever handle any literature of the In-
''Mr^Vi^Sw' ?'s''lnM48, when I worked at the Jefferson School book shop
and duHne the peSs of 1949 when I worked at the book shop on Sunday nights
totmX literature to the various lecturers they had on their lecture programs,
I hanSed certain material put out by the Institute of Pacific Rf ations^
Mr. MANDEL. Was this pamphlet one of those pieces of literature that you
^""Si^ MATTTSOW. That is correct, Our Job in the Pacific by Henry A. Wallace.
Mr Mandel. Who published that pamphlet? , r.^„„«n
Mr MATUSOW. The Institute of Pacific Kelations, American Council.
Mr MANDEi. How did you handle that pamphlet?
Mr Matusow That was displayed at the book shop, and when people who
were aUenXg the Jefferson Scliool, or party members whom I knew to be such
iy.miired nbout material, background material, on Asia, and mainly relating to
SriommunTst ?evoUition in Asia taking place in China, the Communis s versus
the NaUonalists, I was instructed to suggest certain readings. This Our Job m
the Pacific was one of those suggested readings.
Mr. Mandel. Who suggested it to you? TDoii;«,r^,. RafnrP that it
Mr Matusow The manager of the book shop, Sid Ballinger Before that, it
wa^ R Jth NeTthe wife of Jim Nesi, who works for the Committee for a Demo-
^Mr' m!L1" Win you Sate as far as you remember what your instructions were
"rT^^TSow^' W^^^ was one of the many books iised-I will
say that, that this was", as I say, part of the backgroiinc ^/ferml that yo^^^
give a Communist or somebody interested in the sub.iect of the Communist 1 arty
V Pwnoint on the Pacific or the China question, the Asmtic question ^ _ „
S IvCdel Did the bo^ shop ever promote any of the publications of Owen
Lattimore?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, it did.
Mr SIandel. Win you tell us about that? ^ ,^. , n i,„j v,,,
Mr". Matusow. The book Solution in Asia, by Owen Lattimore, published by
Little Brown & Co.
Z- u'SZi^^'lU^nL. one Of the bo,*, ».ed In tie book shop and ,ug^
Bested reading for a background on the party line, the Communist Party line, in
'^ lZ7t^:'it':.i:'l^^^^^^^^^ book shop, .id there
%^rTngCs"lSod?rfs1id. the war in China, the Communist -volution m
China, was taking place, and many people professed a great interest i" that and
the party, the Communist Party Une, as disseminated, had "Ot caught up with
the tide of events we might say. The party had been caught for a while flat-
Sote^fn the term's^? t"e^actual literature put out by the Communist Party, in-
^"Thi'nS w?r?m?^^?g too fast for them. The State Education Committee got
together and decided which books would be good background material, and which
supported the Communist Party line.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3059
They came out with a decision that Solution in Asia was one of those books
which could give a Communist I'arty member a correct line, a Communist line, on
the Asiatic situation in China and China specifically.
JMr. Mandel. Did the book shop also promote the works of Israel Epstein?
Mr. Matusqw. Yes. One book in specific was The Unfinished Revolution in
China. Besides promoting the books of Israel Epstein, he was a lecturer at the
Jefferson School on the question of China.
Mr. Mandel. Did it promote the works of Lawrence K. Rossinger?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall the name. May I go back on one point of Israel
Epstein? When I worked at the Jefferson School, I was informed by David
Ooldway, who was then the Executive Secretary or Director of the Jefferson
School, or held a leading position at the school, that nobody works at the Jefferson
School and there are no lecturers on our programs who are not Communist Party
members.
Mr. Goldway is also a member of the New York State Educational Committee
of the Communist Party.
Mr. Mandel. How do you know that?
Mr. Matusow. I attended the meetings, staff meetings, of the Jefferson School.
As I say, I was a full-time employee, and when I was on the New York State
Educational Committee of the Labor Youth League, I was on the Educational
Committee of the Labor Youth League, and we worked closely with the Com-
munist Party Education Committee in New York State, and I was told that
Mr. Dave Goldway was a member of that Committee and had seen him at Com-
munist Party headquarters when he was there to attend meetings of this New
York Educational Committee.
Mr. Mandel. What if anything do you know about the work of Frederick V,
Field?
Mr. Matusow. I was told there again, before my trip to Porto Rico, I should
say, that I should prepare myself or I should get a good background of the Porto
Rican question.
Mr. Mandel. Who told you?
Mr. Matusow. The Communist Party organizer in New York City, George
Blake Charney,
Before I went to Porto Rico they wanted to make sure I was well founded in
the party line of Porto Rico. I asked where I might get the material needed
for the study of the background on the part of the Porto Rico question, and I
was informed that the Frederick Vanderbilt Field library on West 26th Street,
the Frederick Vanderbilt Field library was the place to 50 to get the party line
and the background material needed for Porto Rico.
Mr. Mandel. Did you actually go to that library?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, I did.
Mr. Mandel. How long were you there?
Mr. Matusow. I spent three or four afternoons and a few mornings there doing
research on Porto Rico.
Mr. Mandel. Did Frederick V. Field teach at the Jefferson School?
Mr. Matusow. To my knowledge he lectured there, he did lecture there. I
mean, I know that, but I can't say what specific lecture it was.
Mr. Mandel. In what way did the name of Evans F. Carlson come to your
knowledge?
Mr. Matusow. When I was a member of the AYD, American Youth for De-
mocracy, I picked up the official publication of the American Youth for Democracy,
which at that time was the Communist Party Youth Organization in the United
States, and on the back cover of this publication called Youth, a letter from
Evans P. Carlson, a retired Brigadier General of the Marine Corps, was pub-
lished, and it stated that he was proud and honored that his name had been
chosen to name one of the AYD Clubs.
It seemed that one of the AYD Clubs had written him asking him for permission
to use his name.
Mr. Mandel. Is there any way you can get us a copy of that?
Mr. Matusow. I don't know what issue that would be.
Mr. Mandel. What year would that be?
Mr. IMatusow. It would be one of the 1046 or 1947 issues.
I was also informed by people in the party literature set-up when the book
The Big Yankee came out, which was the biography of Evans F. Carlson, before
I sold that book, I mean in my capacity as a literature agent for the Communist
Party, that it was highly recommended reading on the question of the Com-
munists in Asia, and that General Carlson was a very close friend of Mao Tse-
3060 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
tung', the party chairman and the head of the Communist Chinese Government. I
was also told that General Carlson had heen to China and he had trained the
remnants of the Eighth Kout Army, which was the Communist Army. That was
before Pearl Harbor.
Mr. Mandel. In what way did the name of Corliss Lament corpe to your at-
tention?
Mr. Matusow. Corliss Lamont had a number of articles published in a mag-
azine called Science and Society.
Mr. Mandel. What is the magazine?
Mr. Matusow. It was a Marxist quarterly, I believe. It was put out by mem-
bers of the Communist Party. It delved mostly into philosophical questions.
Mr. Mandel. Was it considered a Communist publication by the Jeffei-son book
sliop ?
Mr. Matusow. That is correct. We also handle a book, and the title slips my
mind right now, by Mr. Lamont, published by the Philosophical Library in 1949
or 1950. dealing with Marxist philosophy.
Mr. Mandel. In other words, the work of Corliss Lamont was promoted, the
books of Corliss Lamont were promoted, by the Jefferson book shop?
Mr. Matusow. That is correct, and also the Workers book shop.
Mr. Mandel. In what way has the name of Chu Tong come to your attention?
Mr. Matusow. He was editor of the China Daily News.
Mr. Mandel. What was the official estimate of the China Daily News?
Mr. Matusow. When Mr. Chu Tong lectured at the Jefferson School of Social
Science on the question of China, I was informed before his lecture that he was
a membor of the Communist Party.
Mr. Mandel. Who informed you?
Mr. Matusow. Dave Goldway, of the Jefferson School. I might add that the
reason for this answer and the reason for my question was that I was to handle
literature that was to be sold during his lecture.
Lefore anybody lectured, I inquired about how far with the party line "can I
go in selling the literature?" I mean, "would there be any objections on the
part of the lecturer?" I was informed that he was a party member and that I
could go all out in distributing party literature at his lecture.
I was also told by the same person, and other people connected with the Daily
Worker and the Communist Party State Office when I was employed there, that
the China Daily News was the Chinese language version of the Daily Worker in
that it disseminated the line so closely and did not deviate.
Mr. Mandel. Did you remember who told you this?
Mr. Matus;ow. Therfe again I go back to Mr. Dave Goldway. I go to Ben
Bordofsky.
Mr. Mandel. Who is he?
Mr. Matusow. He is head of Wholesale Book Corporation, the Communist
Party literature distributing house in uVew York and nationally, and on occasions
when I had occasion to visit the offices of the Daily Worker and speak to certain
people there, such as Allen Max, and offhand I can't think of some of the other
names, and also Mr. James Nesi, a teacher at the Jefferson School and a lecturer
for the Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy, he also told me that he
took the China Daily News as a Communist party organ.
Mr. IVIandel. Would you remember what year Chu Tong lectured at the Jeffer-
son School, approximately?
Mr. Matusow. 1949.
Mr. Mandel. Have you anything more to say about Chu Tong or the China
Daily News?
Mr. Matusow. No ; I believe that completes that.
Well, yes ; also one other person, if I might, a member of my club, the Tomp-
kins Square Youth Club of the Communist Party, was a man named Lee York,
or it could have been pronounced York Lee. I am not sure which was his first
or last name.
He was born in China. At the time he was about 24 years old. He had joined
the Chinese Communist Party at tlie age of eleven in China. During the second
World War he joined the American Army and claims to have become an Ameri-
can citizen on the basis of that.
He also referred to the China Daily News as a Communist Party organ, distrib-
uted among the Chinese people in New York City.
Mr. ]\Iandel. In conversation with you?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mandel. What, if anything, do you know about Agnes Smedley?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3061
Mr. Matusow. We distributed and sold books written by Agnes Smedley at
the Jefferson School book shop and the Workers shop.
Mr. Mandel. What, if anything, do you know about Edgar Snow?
Mr. Matusow. His book, Red Star Over China, the party considered one of
the most important books on the China question.
Mr. Mandel. What, if anything, did you know about an organization known as
A Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy?
Mr. Matusow. I was informed by the Jefferson School, during the summer
of 1948, through Dave Goldway, that a lecturer, namely, James Nesi, would
appear at the summer camp for a period of one week to discuss China, and he
would represent the Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy.
I know Mr. Nesi personally and knew him to be a member of the Communist
Party.
During that week when Mr. Nesi lectured, I was informed that the Committee
for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy was a Pro-Communist group run by Com-
munist party members. Their office was at 799 Broadway, in New York City.
At a later date in 1949 I had visited their office on more than one occasion —
and don't remember the names right now, but knew the people that stalled the
office to be members of the Communist Party.
Two of them in particular, who were secretaries or employees of that organi-
zation, had attended Communist Party youth meetings which I attended.
Mr. Mandel. Was 799 Broadway the headquarters of other Communist organi-
zations?
Mr. Matusow. Yes. One in particular where I worked, the Labor Youth
League and the Labor Research Association was also at the offices of 799
Broadway.
Mr. Mandel. What if anything do you know about the Magazine Guild and
its parent organization, the United Office and Professional Workers?
"Mr. Matusow. I was a member of that organization and while
Mr. Mandel. Just let me interrupt you, if you please. Of which organization?
Mr. Matusow. The United Office and Professional Workers Union.
Mr. Mandel. You were not a member of the Book and Magazine Guild? That
which was affiliated with the United Office and Professional Workers?
Mr. Matusow. I worked very closely with the organizers of that Book and
Magazine Guild.
Mr. Mandel. Will you tell us what you know of either the Book and Magazine
Guild or the United Office and Professional Workers?
Mr. Matusow. My contacts with the United Office and Professional Workers
Union, of which the Book and Magazine Guild was part of, as a Communist
Party member and a member in good standing of the United Office and Profes-
sional Workers Union, was informed by the organizers of the United Office
and Professional Workers Union, such as Winifred Norman, Norma Aaronson,
Jack Greenspan, Aaron Kramer, Ethel Beach, and also by Communist Party
organizers such as Norman Ross, that the United Office and Professional Workers
Union was staffed, and full-time employees had to be, by members of the Com-
munist Party. That included the Book and Magazine Guild.
Mr. Mandel. Does the name of James S. Allen mean anything to you?
Mr. INlATUSOW. Yes. James S. Allen was considered one of the party theoreti-
cians on the questions of minority groups.
I believe in 1937 he wrote a book called The Negro Question in the United
States, which is being reprinted now by the Communist Party.
He has written a number of pamphlets — I don't recall the titles of those
pamphlets — and articles in magazines such as Political Affairs, and which was
distributed by the Communist Party.
Mr. Mandel. Were his pamphlets promoted by the Jefferson book shop?
Mr. iMatusow. That is correct, and they were published by the Communist
Party, International Publishers or New Century Publishers.
Mr. Mandel. Was New Century Publishers an official Communist publishing
organization?
Mr. IMatusow. That is correct.
Mr. Mandel. What does the name of Abraham Chapman mean to you?
Mr. Matusow. The name is just familiar. I don't know him.
Mr. Mandel. William Mandel?
Mr. IMatusow. Mr. Mandel had lectured at Camp Unity in the summer of 1949
imder the auspices of the Council for American-Soviet Friendship. And there
again, at Camp Unity, I was informed by the State Literature Director of the
Community Party, Ben Bordofsky, that all lecturers at camp this summer "will
3062 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
be Communist Party members, and your literature distribution in relation to
those lecturers will be accordingly."
Mr. Mandel. Mildred Price?
Mr. Matusow. I don't know the name.
Mr Mandel. Thank you verv much, Mr. IMatusow, for your testimony today.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 53 a. m., Wednesday, February 13, 1952, the hearing was
recessed subject to the call of the Chair.)
Mr. FoRTAs. May we see it ?
Mr. Morris. It is the testimonj^ of Mr. Matusow.
Mr. FoRTAs. Could I read it at luncheon ; this record ?
Senator Ferguson. That is all right.
Did you ever know that your book was being used by the Commu-
nists as a Communist line ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir; I didn't. I believe that record says that
they used it for background reading.
Senator Ferguson. Covering the Communist Ime, does it not say
that?
Mr. Lati'imore. It says they used it as background reading.
Senator Ferguson. You heard what was read.
Mr. Lattimore. As I heard it, they said they were using it for
background reading.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know that the Communists were using
your Solution in Asia as background reading?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I did not. _ • • 'ii.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know whether or not it was in line with
the Communist line?
Mr. Lattimore. I should say not.
Senator Ferguson. Had you ever heard anyone, outside of this
witness, saying that it was ? • • j.
Mr. Lattimore. I believe that parts of a Communist review of
Solution in Asia were introduced into the record, but not the whole
review.
Senator Ferguson. This record makes this statement, and your
counsel can check it at noon :
Things are moving too fast for them. The State Education Committee got
together and decided which books would be good background material, and
which supported the Communist Party line.
Now, did you ever know that your book was used by the Communist
State Education Committee as supporting the party line ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I did not.
Senator Ferguson. And then at another place they say :
They came out with a decision —
meaning the Communist Party —
that Solution in Asia was one of those books which could give a Communist
Party member a correct line, a Communist line, on the Asiatic situation in China
and China specifically.
The Chairman. Your question is : Did he know that?
Mr. Lattimore. I did not know that. Might I amplify that?
Senator Ferguson. I would like to have you amplify that you did
not know it.
Mr. Laitimore. I would understand that anybody who was study-
ing the Far East at that time might read various books for background
information, and anybody could use a book like that to twist to their
own purposes, whatever those purposes were.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3063
Senator Ferguson. Well, Mr. Lattimore, do you not think then that
people may be justified in criticizing your book as following the Com-
munist line when testimony before this committee from an employee,
an FBI agent, has characterized it as having been adopted as carry-
ing out the party line ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, Senator. And may I say a few words in addi-
tion to that?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. That I do think that such an interpretation would
be entirely unbalanced unless it were also entered into the record that
many people of other points of view also used and commented favor-
ably on Solution in Asia.
Senator Ferguson. But you would not criticize people now for
following what this witness has said under oath ; would you ?
Mr. Lattimore. I would criticize anybody who took a single opin-
ion on a book that was in the open market and was used, quoted, com-
mented on by all kinds of people of the most diverse opinions.
Senator Ferguson. Can you account for the reason that the Com-
munists may have taken this book as background for the problems in
Asia ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I can't.
The Chairman. I think at this time, Mr. Chairman, we have
reached a point where we can recess for lunch.
Senator Smith. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman ?
On page 2 of this summary it is said, where he quoted :
Things were moving too, fast for them. The State education committee got
together and decided which books would be good background material, and
which supported the Communist Party line.
Now, I inquire as to whether or not there is anything in that record
to indicate that this term, "the State education committee," refers to
an official organization of the State, wherever it was, in New York,
or is that the committee of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Morris. The antecedent paragi'aph shows that, I think. Senator.
Senator Smith. I just wanted to be sure what it is referring to.
Mr. Morris. It says:"* * * in the terms of the actual literature
of the Communist Party," and "Things were moving too fast for
them."
Senator Smith. Is that referring to the State education committee
of the Communist Party, or the State of New York, or what ?
Mr. Morris. Of the Communist party.
The Chairman. I think we have reached a point where we can re-
cess now for the noon recess, and we wiU reconvene at 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12: 55 p. m. the hearing was recessed until 2 p. m.
of the same day.)
after recess
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Chairman, so that there can be no confusion
in the record as to the witness Harvey M. Matusow, I want to read
in relation to his identification with the FBI from the record :
In the summer of 1950, I went to New Mexico, to Taos, N. Mex., and at that
time I had contacted the FBI and was furnishing information to them, and still
in the party, furnishing information to them in relation to the party activities
near Los Alamos, Taos, N. Mex.
3064 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. FoRTAs. May the record show that that is the only passage in
the transcript that refers to this connection with the FBI ?
Senator I^'erguson. That is right.
Mr. FoRTAS. And may the record also show that I agree that certain
parts of the transcript will be deleted?
Senator Ferguson. That has no reference to this case.
Mr. FoRTAS. That is correct.
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
The Chairman. You may proceed to read, Mr. Lattimore.
]Mr. Lattimore. May I make a request, Senator?
The Chairman. You may make a request.
Mr. Lattimore. My wife is sitting here with me with certain sup-
porting material that I prepared for this statement. May she from
time to time hand that material to me as 1 need it?
The Chairman. I do not think that that should be. done for the
purpose of implementing your answers. You should make your an-
swers, as far as you can, and then if you ask for information from
anyone that is connected with it, it will be granted.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, might I ask a short series of ques-
tions at that point?
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, has Mrs. Lattimore, to your knowl-
edge, been giving advice and assistance to any of the witnesses before
this subcommittee ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know whether to call it advice and assist-
ance. She came over here to help Mr. Holland somewhat, before he
appeared before this committee.
Mr. Sourwine. Has she been helping any other witnesses in any
way, as far as you know ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know.
Mr. Sourwine. Has she attended a number of our hearings, to your
knowledge ?
Mr. Lattimore. She has attended a number of hearings ; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. You knew that she had been taking notes of those
hearings ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know what she did with those notes ?
Mr. Lattimore. She brought them home and showed them to me.
Mr. Sourwine. To your knowledge, has Mrs. Lattimore had any
contact with witnesses before this subcommittee, other than Mr.
Holland?
Mr. Lattimore. We have both of us seen Mr. Carter.
The Chairman. He is just asking about Mrs, Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. I would rather have you ask her yourself, Mr.
Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. I am asking what you know.
Mr. Lattimoke. Mr. Sourwine, my mind is extremely confused
because of the very complicated work that I have been through pre-
paring this statement and consulting with other people myself.
The Chairman. Can you answer the question yes or no ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I can't answer it yes or no.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Chairman, the record shows that this
witness feels that he is not competent to go along, as I understand this
i^^ INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3065
answer here. He said he is so confused with the work he has been
tlirough preparing this that he might not be responsible for his an-
swers.
The Chairman. I do not care to take that.
Mr. SouRWiNE. May I rephrase the question?
Do you know, Mr. Lattimore, w^hether Mrs. Lattimore has con-
sulted with any witnesses before this committee before they have
testified here ?
Mr. Lattimore. May I state, Mr. Sourwine, why my memory is
confused ?
The Chairman. Just a moment. That is not the question.
Mr. Lattimore. I cannot answer that clearly. Senator.
The Chairman. The question is do you know. You can answer
it whether you know or not, and then explain.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know.
Mr. Sourwine. Has she consulted with any of the witnesses who
have appeared here, after they testified ?
Mr. Lattimore. May I amplify my previous answer, Mr. Senator ?
The Chairman. You may explain it, not amplify it.
Mr. Lattimore. I will explain it by saying that these hearings
have now been going on for some 8 months. During the course of that
8 months, both my wife and I have been very busy making notes,
looking up references, all kinds of things, and for that reason it is
not at all clear in my mind what persons my wife may have seen or
consulted with before their hearings or after their hearings in the
course of this long period.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know of any instances in which Mrs. Latti-
more has consulted with w^itnesses who appeared ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I recall at the moment.
Mr. Sourwine. Have you advised or assisted any witnesses before
this committee, you yourself?
Tlie Chairman. That is, before they testified, do you mean ?
Mr. Sourwine. Either before or after, in connection with their tes-
timony here ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have talked with Mr. Holland and Mr. Carter.
That is all I can recall at the moment, because there may be others, if
you would name some others. I would be glad to answer whether I
recall.
Mr. Sourwine. Have you consulted and advised with any witnesses
before this committee after they had begun their testimony and before
they had concluded it?
Mr. Lattimore. I am not sure.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you ever come over to Washington to have
conferences with witnesses before this committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't think I did.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you and Mrs. Lattimore ever have conferences
with witnesses before this committee on the day they testified ?
Mr. Lattimore. On the day they testified? My wife was over here
and saw Mr. Holland, I think, on the morning that he testified here.
Mr. Sourwine. Is that your complete and full answer to this ques-
tion I just asked you?
Mr. Lattimore. That is as full as I can make it at the moment.
3066 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. Can you say that you and Mrs. Lattimore did not on
any occasion come over to Washington and have a conference with
any of tlie witnesses before this committee on the day they testified?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I couldn't say we didn't.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do jou think you did ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am not sure. If I were allowed to consult with
my wife, I could probably get a clearer recollection.
^Ir. SouRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, I ask that on that point the witness
be allowed to consult with his wife and then asked to answer the
question.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Lattimore. She doesn't remember any such occasions. She
thinks it could only have been Mr. Carter and she doesn't remember
consulting with him here.
The Chairman. All right. You may proceed.
Senator Ferguson. Did you talk with Mr. Clubb before or after he
testified ?
Mr. Lattimore. I talked with Mr. Clubb before he testified here,
but I didn't know that he was to testify here.
Senator Ferguson. Did you confer with him after he testified?
Mr. Lattimore. I talked with him subsequent to his testifying here,
but I don't recall whether we discussed his testimony here or not.
Senator Ferguson. Will you think about it, whether or not you did
discuss with him his testimony before this committee?
Mr. Lattimore. May I again consult my wife ?
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Ferguson. Was she with you when you were talking to
him?
Mr. Lattimore. I think she would have been there ; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, if it does not interrupt the Senator —
Mr. Lattimore, you seem to have the impression that if you had con-
sulted and advised with any witness before this committee, it was
Mr. Holland. Apparently after talking with Mrs. Lattimore, as you
stated she thought if it was anyone it was Mr. Carter. Could it have
been Mr. Holland and Mr. Carter together?
Mr. Lattimore. It might have been, but I don't think both of them
togetlier.
Mr. Sourwine. Can you tell us anything about the occasion on
which you might have consulted with Mr. Carter about his testimony ?
Mr. Lattimore. I can't recall precise dates. I can't recall the precise
stage which the hearings had reached. I do remember talking with
both of them, though.
Mr. Sour"wtne. Well, if you had, with Mrs. Lattimore, made a
specific appointment and met with Mr. Carter to discuss his testimony
l)efore this committee, would you not remember it, or if you had done
so with Mr. Holland would you not remember it ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have seen and talked with so many people in the
last 8 months, on the general subject of
The Chairman. You can answer that. Would you not have re-
membered it?
Mr. Lattimore. Not necessarily, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, did you ever have dinner with Mr.
Carter and Mrs. Lattimore at the conclusion of a session of this com-
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3067
niittee at which Mr. Carter had testified, for the purpose of discussing
with him the testimony ?
Mr. Lattimore. My wife says she saw him at the time of his hearing.
The Chairman. The question is : Did you have dinner with him ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't remember.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I am asking about you, now.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't remember.
Mr. SoTJRwiNE. Do you know whether you had dinner on the night
of September 20, 1951, which was the date on which Mr. Carter testi-
fied before this committee?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I couldn't tell you, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Did j^ou not have dinner at the Aldo Cafe, in Wash-
ington, D. C. ?
Mr. Lattimore. Aldo Cafe ? I may have, I don't remember it.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know where that cafe is ?
JNIr. Lattimore. No ; I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Sour^vine. Have you ever eaten there?
Mr. Lattimore. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you think it is possible that you could have
•eaten in the Aldo Cafe and not remember it ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is quite possible.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know if there is anything unusual about
the cafe ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know that it is a cafe that has a tremendous
grape arbor so that wherever you sit at the tables the grapes are hang-
ing about a foot and a half above your head ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I remember such an arbor ; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you remember eating in that cafe ?
Mr. Lattimore. I remember eating there ; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you remember the occasion on which you were
eating there?
ISIr. Lattimore. Yes ; Mr. Carter was there.
Mr. Sourwine. Can you tell us who else was there ?
The Chairman. You have grapes and Carter mixed up now.
Mr. Lattimore. No; I can't remember anyone else there.
Mr. Sourwine. Can you say there was no one else there besides you
.and Mr. Carter?
Mr. Lattimore. I couldn't say so; no.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know whether Mrs. Lattimore was there?
Mr. Lattimore. I think so.
Mr. Sourwine. As a matter of fact, do you not know she was there?
Mr. Latitmore. Yes ; she was there.
Mr. Sourwine. From your own recollection, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. Not from my own recollection ; I am sorry.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you think it is possible that Mr. Lawrence Ros-
ino;er was there with you ?
Mr. Lattimore. Might be. No ; neither of us remember his being
there.
Mr. Sourwine. Is that your recollection? You said it might be,
and you turned to Mrs. Lattimore, and she said "No" and you said
■^'No." What is your recollection, sir?
3068 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, my memory is not built of the struc-
ture of grape vines.
The Chairman. Just a minute. You can answer. What is your
recollection, please ?
Mr. Lattimore. None ; blank.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Sourwine. Then you would say that we would be unable from
you to obtain the name of the fourth person, if there was a fourth
person who was with you that night ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Ferguson. Going back to Mr. Clubb, do you remember
your conversation with Mr, Clubb ?
Mr. Lattimore. Before he appeared here ?
Senator Ferguson. Either before or after.
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I remember we dropped in without any pre-
vious planning or anything to call at the Clubbs'' one day when we
were over here, and we dropped in because I had called him at the
Department and was told he was on leave, or something of that sort.
Senator Ferguson. You saw in the paper, did you not, that he had
been suspended?
Mr. Lattimore. If you will let me go on with my story, Senator;
after receiving this reply from the Department of State, I called his
house and he said, "Yes, we are at home. Come on over."
So w^e went over there, and he told us that he had been suspended.
We then saw it in the paper.
Senator Ferguson. Now, after he testified, did you have a conver-
sation with him ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think almost certainly ; yes.
Senator Ferguson. Did you talk to Mr. Vincent?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Ferguson. Before or after he testified ?
Mr. Lattimore. Neither before nor after.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Service ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have seen Mr. Service occasionally in the past few
months in connection with his appearance here before or after, I
couldn't specify.
Senator Ferguson. And Mr. Davies ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not Mr. Davies.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, if I understood you correctly, you
stated earlier that you had not come over to Washington for any con-
ference with any w^itnesses before this committee.
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I recall.
Mr. Sourwine. W^e have recalled one to your mind, have we not,
that is, the occasion on which you had dinner with Mr. Carter and
Mrs. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Sourwine. I want to ask you if you can recall any otlier oc-
casions on which you had conferences with witnesses before this
committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I can't.
Mr. Sourwine. Can you say there were no other occasions on which
you had conferences with witnesses before this committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I can't.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3069
Mr. SouRwiNE. Can you say there were not many such conferences ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I can't.
Mr. SouRwiNE. No more questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right. You may proceed, Mr. Lattimore, to
read your statement.
Mr. Lattimore. The distortions by your witnesses of what I wrote in
1945 about the Japanese Emperor are even more amazing. Mr.
Dooman charged that I had been opposed to using the Japanese Em-
peror as an instrument of American policy after the war, as if Amer-
icans who opposed keeping pet emperors were somehow un-Americaji,
and Senator Eastland argued that Communists wanted to overthrow
the emperor because "communism and monarchy are incompatible''
and "Lattimore understood this."
Mr. Colegrove, rising to the occasion, expressed the idea much more
vividly, saying that I had urged that the Japanese Emperor "and his
whole family should be exterminated."
But Mr. McGovern excelled even Mr. Colegrove in the enormity of
his accusations. Under prodding and leading questions from Senator
Eastland, McGovern elaljorated his distortions of my opinions about
the Japanese Emperor to the point of saying that I "wanted him mur-
dered," and wanted his family, including "his wife and children,"
treated as "among the worst of the war criminals," and "turned over
to the Chinese who would know how to deal with him."
This ludicrous "mishmash" is a deliberate garbling of the opinion
that I clearl}^ expressed in Solution in Asia, in 1945, that after the war
(not as "the best way to overthrow Japan"), the Emperor and his
family should be interned in China, under the supervision of the
United Nations. This suggestion was obviously predicated on the
assumption that there would be a strong, stable government in China,
under Chiang Kai-shek, and that China would be one of the Big Five
of the United Nations. It was also predicated on the assumption
that if the Emperor was not made a martyr, but simply removed from
circulation, the way would be cleared for a future republic in Japan
which I thought would favor the growth of a democratic system
(Solution in Asia, pp. 187-188).
It was a humane suggestion, made at a time when many people,
inflamed by Japanese atrocities and high American casualties, were
demanding mass exterminations, just as a few fanatics are demanding
now that we get rid of our Russian worries, or our Chinese worries,
by dropping atom bombs indiscriminatelj^ and wiping out women and
children as well as troops. I have never believed in or advocated
this kind of bloodthirstiness.
Others (and I accuse none of them of being Communists) wanted
to be more drastic. For instance, Senator Brien McMahon was
quoted in the New York Times of August 11, 1945, as saying, "If
the Japs are allowed to keep their fantastic god-emperor system, we
may get an armistice and not an end to the war." Maj. Gen. Claire
Chennault was quoted in the New York Times of August 30, 1945,
as declaring that our greatest potential danger was in leaving the
Japanese Emperor in control, and saying "There will either be a
popular revolution headed by the commercial class or the Mikado will
rebuild the old structure and begin new conquests at a future date."
On September 18, 1945,, Senator Russell, of Geo^rgia, supported by
Senators Fulbright, McClellan, and Taylor, introduced a joint reso-
88348 — 52— pt. 9 12
3070 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
hition to have Emperor Hirohito tried as a war criminal (S. J. Res.
94, Congressional Record, vol. 91, p. 8680).
I have here, also, quotations from others who wanted to get rid ot
the Emperor— including Hanson Baldwin, Mayor LaGuardia, Otto
Tolischus, Brig. Gen. Carlos Romulo, Admiral William F. Halsey,
Senators Wallace H. White, Tom Stewart, William Langer and Sun
Fo of the Chinese Nationalist Government— which I would like to in-
troduce into the record. , . ^, . q tt
Senator Smith. What purpose is that, Mr. Chairman? Here are
some unsworn statements by somebody who is not even at the hearing.
The Chairman. It may be received at the moment, subject to a
decision by the committee.
Mr LA.TTIM0RE. May I speak to your remark. Senator ?
Senator Smith. I am just making an observation. Neither one of
those men are here to be subject to cross-examination. You have put
in ex parte statements from them. . . . . x
Mr. Lattimore. May I make an observation pertinent to your
observation ?
Senator Smith. That is up to the chairman. _ . .. rr..
The Chairman. I cannot see anything to raise an issue about, itie
Chair will pass upon the insertion into the record. , . ^ ,.
Mr. L\TTiM0RE. Against this background it sounds rather fantastic
to hear Mr. Colegrove make what was, for a political scientist, an
extremely rash statement. He said that "extermmatmg" the Jap-
anese Emperor "has always been the Soviet line." I must confess niy
own ignorance. I should like to see Professor Colegrove produce the
evidence on this interesting point. . i ^ j t-c
On the subject of Japan, I don't want to be misunderstood, if
the price of gaining your approval is that I forget the stab m the
back at Pearl Harbor, that I forget the barbarous depredations ot
Japan in China and other countries, and that I subscribe to emperor
worship, then the price is one that you will not get from me. I cannot
forget recent history, and I cannot forgive treachery, whether it is
made in America or in Japan. I do hope, however, that Japan will
turn her back on her recent history, that she will become a decent
member of the family of nations, and that the Emperor will become
a ruler on the model of the English constitutional monarchy.
Mr. SouRWiNE. :Mr. Chairman^ may I ask one question?
The Chairman. Yes. ^ i i
Mr SouRwiNE. Mr. Lattimore, in the light of your present knowl-
edge, do you think the United States, was wrong m not eliminating
the Japanese Emperor? i ^t
Mr. Lattimore. No. May I explain that by adding that what i
recommended on the subject of the Japanese Emperor was wntten
before the end of the war when it was expected that there would be
a bloody last stand made on the Island of Japan itself before we
secured a surrender, and that therefore the political aspects, following
the conquest of Japan, would turn out to be quite different from what
it actually was. i i -, i -i x n
Actually, tlie Japanese . snrrendered before we had landed at all.
The Emperor took part in the surrender, and on the whole, I should
say, that General MacArthur's handling of the Emperor was con-
ducted with great diplomatic skill and statesmanship.
Senator Watkins. May I ask a question ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3071
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Watktns. You saj' "I recommeiided." To whom did you
make a recommendation ?
Mr. Lattimore. To anybody who might buy my book.
Senator Watkins. Did that inchide the State Department?
Mr. Lattimore. It included anybody who mightbuy my book.
Senator Watkins. Is that the only recommendation made?
Mr. Lattimore. On the subject of the Japanese Emperor, I be-
lieve that is absolutely the only recommendation I made.
Senator Watkins."^ I noticed you said in the form that "I recom-
mended" and that was the reason I was curious to know.
Mr. Lattimore. No, I "was merely referring to what I had written
in Solution in Asia.
Senator Ferguson. I would like to ask one question on that. You
mentioned again the Solution in Asia. I will ask you whether or not
you knew that your book. Solution in Asia, was advertised for sale
by the International Book Store, 1400 Market Street, San Francisco 2,
dalif.
Mr. Lattimore. No, I didn't Imow it.
Senator Ferguson. And did you know that the International Book
Store, San Francisco, was listed by the Un-American Activities Com-
mittee report 1947, page 100, "The Communist Party book center in
the Bay area for the distribution of its literature" ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I didn't, Senator, and in fact I believe I had
never heard of the International Book Store until this moment.
Senator Ferguson. We talked about the Daily Peoples World this
morning, did we not, and you had heard that that was a Communist
newspaper?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I first heard of that at the time of the
Tydings hearings, a few years ago.
Senator Ferguson. On January 8, 1945, in the Peoples Daily World,
this ad appeared under "San Francisco." I am putting that in in
relation to the witness' testimony, the witness who testified about your
book being used.
Mr. Lattimore. This is the first time I have seen it.
Senator Watkins. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that at an execu-
tive session I took some time ago there was .some testimony on that
same point. It seemed to me there was an FBI agent who made a
statement on that.
The Chairman. That was covered this morning.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, is the Senator offering this for the
record ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes, I am. But I want to call attention to the
fact that it is listing William Z. Foster's book in the same ad.
Do you know William Z. Foster.
Mr. Lattimore. No, I don't.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know who wrote Sabotage?
Mr. Lattimore.. No, I don't know that book.
Senator Ferguson. The Plot Against Peace. Do you know whether
that was by Albert Kahn ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I have heard of that book, yes.
Senator Ferguson. So your book was advertised with Mr. Foster,
Mr. Albert Kahn, and the Solution in Asia. Do you think that might
3072 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
confirm the man who testified this morning that it was being used
as background of the Communist Party for their party linei'
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Senator, I have already stated that I don't
see why the Communists
The Chairman. Do you think that might confirm? That is the
question. Do you care to answer that "Yes" or "No," and then elab-
orate, if you wish ?
Mr. Lattimoei:. I can't answer that question yes or no, Senator. I
don't know how the Communist Party operates in these matters.
Senator Ferguson. Have you ever talked to any Communists in rela-
tion to that book '(
Mr. Lattjmore. Not to my knowledge.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever arrange for any price reduction for
that book, to Communists or Communist book stores?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I didn't.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know whether or not your publisher
did?
Mr. Latti3I0RE. I don't know whether he did or not.
Senator Ferguson. Did he ever consult you about reduction in
price ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I don't think I was ever consulted on that.
Senator Ferguson. Well, will you think about it. You say you
didn't think so. Will you think a moment and see whether or not you
do recall that.
Mr. Lattimore. I believe not.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, if this is offered for the record, it
appears to be a photostat. I believe Mr. Mandel prepared this photo-
stat or caused it to be prepared. May we ask Mr. Mandel, w^ho has
been sworn for the duration of these hearings, about this?
Mr. Mandel, is that a photostat which you caused to be prepared?
Mr. Mandel. Yes.
Mr. SouRWiNE. What is it a photostat of?
Mr. Mandel. It is a photosl:at of the paper called the Daily People's
World.
Mr. SouRWiNE. It is a photostat of a portion of a page of that
paper, is it not ?
Mr. Mandel. Yes, sir. June 8. 1945, page 5.
Mr. Sourwine. Being the display ad of the International Book
Store?
Mr. Mandel. Yes, sir.
Senator Ferguson. Just one more question about Mr. Foster.
Do you know who William Z. Foster was, that is, what his position
was in the United States ?
Mr. Latiimore. I believe he was at one time one of the leading
Communists.
Senator Ferguson. At one time. Do you not think he is now ?
Mr. Lattimore. Is he ?
Senator Ferguson. I am asking you.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know.
Senator Ferguson. You do not know ?
Mr. Lattimore. I thought he was replaced by Browder or somebody.
Senator Ferguson. When did that happen? When did you hear
that?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3073
Mr. Lattimore. Years ago.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know he was indicted as one of the
leading Communists ?
Mr. Lattimore. I couldn't answer you on that. I know that people
considered the leading Communists were indicted, biit I couldn't tell
you anything about it.
Senator Ferguson. You do not know whether William Z. Foster
was indicted ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't.
Senator Ferguson. Did you know Albert Kahn's position?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever hear of him ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have heard of him in connection with that book
that you have just referred to.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know whether or not he wrote pro-Com-
munist literature?
Mr. Lattimore. Other than that, I don't know.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Is this to be admitted. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman, That will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked as "Exhibit No. 471" and is
as follows:)
Exhibit No. 471
[Daily People's World, June 8, 1945, p. 5]
San Francisco
NEW BOOKS AT INTERNATIONAL
Organized Labor Faces the New World (by Wm. Z. Foster), 5 cents : Discusses
the growing strength of organized labor, and the possibilities for advancement
created by the formation of the World Federation of Trade Unions.
The Plot Against the Peace (by the authors of "Sabotage") : Deals with Nazi
Germany's secret plans for a Third World War by splitting the United Nations.
Solution in Asia (by Owen Lattimore) : Mr. Lattimore deals with the political,
economic, and military factors affecting developments in the Far East.
International Book Store
1400 Market Street, San Francisco 2, Calif.
Free mailing to all parts of the United States
Daily People's World was cited as the "West Coast mouthpiece of the Com-
munist Party * * * published by the Pacific Publishing Foundation, Inc., in
San Francisco. * * * The San Francisco office is located at 590 Folsom
Street and the Los Angeles oflBce is at 206 South Spring Street." (California
Committee on Un-American Activities, Report, 1948, p. 342.) Guide to Subveb-
sn-E Organizations and Publications, May 14, 1951, House Committee on Un-
American Activities, page 131.
international bookstore, SAN FRANCISCO
1. "The Communist Party book center in the bay area for the distribution of its
literature." (California Committee on Un-American Activities, Report 1947,
p. 100.)
Mr. Sourwine. Does the Chair desire the witness to go ahead with
the reading of his statement ?
The Chairman. Go ahead with the reading of your statement,
please.
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that the record would
be more balanced
3074 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
I
The Chairman. Never mind about the balance of it. You may
roceed with the reading of your statement. We can take care of the
„ahince. Please go ahead with your reading. We will take care of
the balance of the record. That is our obligation. Please go ahead
with the reading of your manuscript or else desist from it.
Mr. Lattimore. 4. In 1919, 1 was invited by the State Department
with about 30 other people to take part in a discussion of far-eastern
policy; and as part of the preparations for that discussion I con-
tributed— also on invitation — a memorandum of my views. To the
best of my recollection this is the only time, in more than 25 years,
that the State Department has ever asked me for my views.
For the purpose of discrediting the far-eastern policy of the present
administration, and presumably to keep himself in the newspapers
as a perpetual presidential candidate, Mr. Harold Stassen has at-
tempted to make me the scapegoat of this conference.
Mr. Stassen accused me of leading, at this conference, a "prevailmg
Lattimore group" which advocated a Communist line. He then de-
scribed a "10-point program" which he claimed I had advocated. Mr.
Stassen obviously did not expect the record of the conference would
be made public.
Mr. SouRwiNE. May I ask leave to interrupt the witness at that
point, to clarify his statement in that regard?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mv. SouRwiNE. Do you, Mr. Lattimore, intend by that sentence
The Chairjian. What sentence is that?
Mr. SouRwiNE. "He then described a '10-point program' which he
claimed I had advocated."
The Chairman. You w-ill have to get more of the sentence in there.
Mr. SouRV/iNE. That is the full sentence.
The Chairman. It refers back to who ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Stassen.
Do you intend by that sentence, Mr. Lattimore, to make the
statement that Mr. Stassen claimed that you alone, as an individual^
advopated a 10-point program ?
Mr. Lattimore. That sentence, Mr. Chairman, should be taken
in conjunction with the previous sentence in which there is the ex-
pression quoted from Mr. Stassen "prevailing Lattimore group." _
Mr. SouRwiNE. Will you answer the question directly, please ? Did
you intend by that sentence to make the charge that Mr. Stassen had
stated that you, as an individual, had advocated a 10-point program?
Mr. Latitmore. He described me as one of the individuals who had
advocated a 10-point program.
Mr. SoxjRwiNE. I am asking about your intent, sir. Did you intend
by the sentence that I read to charge that Mr. Stassen had stated that
you, as an individual, personally, had advocated this 10-point pro-
gram ?
Mr. Lattimore. My intention was to quote from Mr. Stassen him-
self, that he said I was one of a gi'oup which advocated a 10-point
program.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You did not quote from him that way, did you,
Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I did. He accused me of leading at this con-
ference a prevailing Lattimore group. Later in my statement I come
to the question of Mr. Stassen and me personally.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3075
Mr. SouRWiNE. As a matter of fact you know, do you not, that Mr.
Stassen said the group advocated these 10 points; that he explained
what he meant by the group, and that he did not at any time say that
you personally had avocated all the 10 points. Is that not correct?
Mr. Lattimore, Mr. Stassen repeatedly made statements which
would convey to the ordinary member of the public reading the news-
papers that, as a member of the group, I must have made such state-
ments personally.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Are you then charging, Mr. Lattimore, that Mr^
Stassen did state that you had advocated this 10-point program ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am stating that Mr. Stassen conveyed that im-
pression.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Now may I get back to the original question, sir.
I wish we could have a yes or no on it. Did you, by the use of
this sentence "He then described a '10-point program' which he
claimed I had advocated" mean to say that Mr. Stassen was charging
you as a person with advocating this particular 10-point program ?
Mr. Lattimore. With advocating; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. That is your intention ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. And will you now
Mr. Lattimore. Which he claimed I had advocated.
Mr. Sourwine. Will you now tell the committee from what part in
the record you are quoting when you say that Mr. Stassen declared
that you were advocating that program, as an individual?
Mr. Lattimore. He stated "that the members of this group had not
differed from each other."
The Chairman. All right. Proceed with your reading.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Mr. Chairman, please, may I continue?
Do you not know, Mr. Lattimore, that after having identified the
group that he was speaking of, after having said there were two leaders
in this, one perhaps senior, Mr. Owen Lattimore, and Mr. Lawrence
Rosinger, they were the leaders in the discussion of the prevailing
group, Mr. Stassen was then asked if he would in a concrete way set
forth some of recommendations that this group had made during th&
conference and he stated "The group that was led in the discussion by
these two gentlemen recommended 10 points for American policy in
China and in Asia."
Mr. Lattimore. I submit, Mr. Sourwine, that to the ordinary reader
that would convey the impression that I had made some of the state-
ments.
Mr. Sourwine. You are discussing this, then, only in the light of
what you consider to be a statement by Mr. Stassen that you as a
member of this group have advocated the 10-point program that you
speak of?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Sourwine. All right, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed with the reading, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. Accordingly, he let his imagination run riot and
attributed to me all the opinions expressed at this conference with
which he disagreed, and some that he just imagined.
As soon as I learned of Mr. Stassen's statements I appealed to the
State Department to release the full record of the conference. I pub-
licly asked Mr. Stassen to join me in this request, which he did not do..
3076 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
As soon as I could obtain a transcript of my remarks I released it to
the press, and later the full transcript of the entire conference was
released.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt ?
Do you, Mr. Lattimore, take credit for the release of that conference
record hj the State Department?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, you referred yesterday somewhat
disparagingly to my ego, but I think in this case I can claim a major
part of the credit for getting that transcript released.
Mr. Sourwine. I do no think there is any question about it.
As a matter of fact, do you know that this committee had asked
that that transcript be made available to this committee long before
you asked that it might be made public ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know that it was denied to this committee
until after you asked that it be made public ?
Mr. Lattimore. I didn't know that; no. I may have heard it at
one time, but I didn't know it.
Mr. Sourwine. I take no issue with the statement that you were
largely responsible for the release of that transcript.
The Chairman. All right. You may proceed with your reading,
Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. You have that in your files, and I ask you to check
it against what I say here. This transcript clearly showed that I had
not advocated any of the 10 points which Mr. Stassen had so irrespon-
sibly labeled as a Lattimore program. His 10 points were as follows :
1. Deferment of the problem in Asia; priority for Europe. What
I said was that the problems of Asia and Europe should be handled
jointly.
2. No United States aid-to- Asia program until "after long study."
I did not suggest "long study." I said that we could attract Asian
countries away from Russia by showing that friendly association with
the United States was a better and faster way of obtaining economic
prosperity.
3. That the Russian Communists were not as aggressive as Hitler.
On that point Mr. Stassen attributed to me a garbled version of some-
thing that was said by Mr. George Kennan, of the State Department.
4. Early recognition of Red China. I did not advocate this. I
said that to recognize Red China in haste might create in Asia the
impression that we had been panicked ; but that to defer recognition
too long, if the Chinese Communists proved that they were there to
stay, might give the impression that we had been baffled. Inci-
dentally, I do not believe that we should recognize Red China at this
time.
5. The United States should encourage such countries as Britain
and India to recognize Red China, and should then follow with its
own recognition.
Senator Ferguson. IMr. Lattimore, when yon say that you do not
recommend that we should recognize China at this time, do you know
of anybody that would recommend that we recognize Rsd China when
we are figliting a war with her?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I don't.
Senator Ferguson. While we are fighting that war?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I don't.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3077
Senator Ferguson. Has that anything to do with your recom-
mendation ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I put that in as a safeguard against being
quoted out of context.
Senator Ferguson. Quoted by who?
]\Ir. Lattimore. By this committee or the press or anybody.
Senator Ferguson. You think that this committee would quote you
out of context?
Mr. Lattimore. This committee has quoted me out of context.
Senator Ferguson. On what occasions ?
Mr. Lattimore. I can give you one occasion when Mr. John Carter
Vincent had read to him, I believe, or had shown to him, a passage
from Solution in Asia dealing with what I represented as the attitude
of the Asian peoples on the frontier of China, and left out the words
"in their eyes" in such a way as to misrepresent me as believing what
I said other people thought.
Senator Ferguson. Did you find that in the transcript?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; it is in the transcript.
Senator Ferguson. Could you let us see it ?
Mr. Sour"\vine. Mr. Lattimore, the question was, Did you find that
in the transcript? It is perfectly obvious from the way you turned
around to Mrs. Lattimore that you did not. Is that not true?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I was turning around to see if we had a copy
of tliat part of the transcript with us.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you find it in the transcript?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I did.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I checked the transcript.
Senator Ferguson. Did you call the attention of the committee to
the fact that there was something in the way of an omission ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I didn't.
Senator Ferguson. Did you think it could have been an omission, or
do you want to now cite it as bad faith upon the part of the committee?
Mr. Lattuviore. That particular quotation has been used against me
so often, and I have protested against it so often, that when I en-
counter it now I can hardly avoid the assumption that it is deliberate
misquotation.
Senator Ferguson. You mean that it has been quoted before with
this omission?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, it has.
Senator Ferguson. Who quoted it?
Mr. Lattimore. May I ask if we have a record of it?
Senator Ferguson. Yes ; we would like to have it.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator McCarthy quoted it, and I can produce
that quotation.
Senator Ferguson. I wish you would, for the record.
Mr. Lattimore. And Miss Freda Utley quoted it, and I can produce
that quotation.
Mr. SouRWiNE. How about producing the quotation that you
charged the committee made out of context?
Mr. Lattimore. As soon as I can get hold of the copy of the tran-
script, Mr. Sourwine, I will do that.
The Chairman. Proceed with your reading for the time being.
3078 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. 5. The United States should encourage such coun-
tries as Britain and India to recognize Red China, and should then
follow with its own recognition. There is nothing like this in the
transcript.
6. That it should be United States policy to turn Formosa over to
i;he Chinese Communists. I did not mention Formosa.
7. That it should be our policy to permit the Chinese Communists
to take Hong Kong. Although "Mr. Stassen said this was one of the
"hot arguments" of the conference, the only mention of Hong Kong in
the entire conference was by Mr. Butterworth of the State Depart-
ment, who had merely said, "The British have not sought any par-
ticular assistance through us for the defense of Hong Kong." Mr.
Stassen himself also referred to Hong Kong, but there was no
"argument."
8. That Premier Nehru had shown reactionary and arbitrary ten-
dencies. I did not speak on the subject of India, nor mention Nehru,
for whom I have always had the highest regard and whom I consider
"the outstanding representative of freedom in Asia.
9. That tlie United States should not approve the Nationalist
blockade of the Chinese Communist coast, and should send economic
aid to Communist areas. I did not say this.
10. That no aid should be sent to the non-Communist guerillas,
nor to the Chiang Kai-shek forces. I said nothing of this sort.
In his second hearing, after the full record had been released, Mr.
Stassen backtracked. He did not, of course, admit error. That would
have been out of character for a Presidential candidate. He attempted
to cover up by quoting some member of what he had labeled the
"Lattimore group" (who, he said, had "not differed" from each other)
in support of each of his 10 points. He quoted me in connection with
only 1 of the 10, and that in a way to distort my meaning.
Confronted with the absurd discrepancies between the kind of con-
ference that he had pretended to describe and the kind of conference
that was revealed when the full transcript was finally published,
Stassen tried to escape by doing acts on the flying trapeze, as if he
were a road-show McCarthy swinging through the air with the great-
est of ease from "205 names" to "57" names and all the rest of it. In-
stead of continuing to claim that I was the leader of the group because
I advanced all or any of their 10 points, the only reason he could now
give for calling me and Mr. Lawrence Rosinger its "leaders" was that
we had done most of the talking; although even this was not the case.
Wliatever agreement there was between Mr. Rosinger and me was
purely accidental. I know Mr. Rosinger only very slightly and had
had no discussion with him on any of these matters either before or
during the conference. Our contributions to the discussion happened
to be on different subjects, except on the matter of the recognition of
Red China and, since we differed markedly on this, there was not
even anything which could be termed agreement between us.
On the subject of the recognition of China, Mr. Rosinger advocated
recognition as "early as possible," within "perhaps 3, 6, maybe 9
months," whereas I pointed out that there could be serious disad-
T^antages either in a hasty recognition of the Red regime, or in delay-
ing recognition too long.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3079
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness
-whether he thinks that the quoted statements there, his own and Mr.
Rosinger's, are actually different or whether his own statement is
only more palatable?
Mr; Lattimore. I think my statement is entirely different.
Mr. SouRWiNE.'Mr. Rosinger, within "perhaps 3, 6, maybe 9
months." You were urging that recognition be not delayed too long.
Wliat is the difference?
Mr. Lattimore. One of the differences is that I have here simply
boiled down what I actually had to say on the subject, and one of
the things that I had to say on the subject was that any question of
recognition of China should be considered only in conjunction with
a number of other moves on policy in Asia. I don't believe that point
was taken up by Mr. Rosinger at all.
Mr. SouRWiNE. The discussion of the whole question of what you
said can well be saved for a later date. But I was endeavoring to find
out whether, on the basis of what you had seen fit to quote here, you
felt that there was a contradiction between what Mr. Rosinger had
urged, and what you were urging,
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I think there is a distinctive difference.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you think they are contradictory ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think contradictory, in that context, Mr. Sour-
wine, is a rather trick word.
Senator Ferguson. Do I understand the witness is accusing the
counsel of trying to trick him ?
The Chairman. Yes ; and it has been going on right along. ^ Answer
that question. You can answer it yes or no. Do you think it is con-
tradictory ?
Mr. Lattimore. That my position was contradictory of Rosinger's?
The Chairman. The statement of the witness will be stricken from
the record as regards the question being tricky.
Mr. Lattimore. Well, I am sorry, Mr. Senator. I still think it was
a tricky question.
The Chairman. That will be stricken from the record also. Now
if you will answer the question we will get along.
ikr. Lattimore. I think that the question is not susceptible to
answer in terms of the word "contradictory."
The Chairman. Very well. Go on. Go on with your reading.
Mr. Lattimore. It is a fact that in October 1949, many responsible,
well-informed and patriotic men believed that it would be sound pol-
icy to recognize the new government in China. To hold that belief was
not in the slightest unpatriotic or subversive. Wlien the British Gov-
ernment recognized the Red government of China, there was no ap-
preciable Tory opposition, and the present conservative government
confirms that policy today. I hold it against no man that he took
that position at that time. I freely admit that I was not crystal-clear
in my own mind then as to the best course of action. _ If I myself, at
that confernece, had advocated the recognition of China, I should not
"be in the least ashamed of it. But on the point of relevant fact, the
record shows that I did not. It would be more accurate to accuse Mr.
Rosinger of conniving with Mr. William R. Herod, president of the
General Electric Co., Mr. William S. Robertson of the American &
Foreign Power Co., and J. Morden Murphy, vice president of the
3080 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Bankers Trust Co. All of these men advocated recognition at that
time, as the transcript shows. I present for your record quotations
from these and other men who advocated recognition of Red China.
Mr. SoTJRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, at that point, the entire transcript
of the proceedings of that State Department conference is in the
record of this committee, as printed in volume 5.
I should like at this time to tender to Mr. Lattimore and his counsel,
and Mrs. Lattimore, the committee copy of the record of Vincent's
testimony.
I am still interested in having IVIr. Lattimore identify the particular
quotation which he says was printed improperly.
The Chairman. It will be presented to the witness.^ Mrs. Latti-
more is not a witness before this committee, and neither is his counsel.
It will be presented to the witness.
Mr. SouRWiNE. I beg the C'hair's pardon.
The Chairman. If the witness AA-ants to refer to his counsel or any-
one else, that is his business.
Mr. Fortas. Do you want us to have Mr. Lattimore look at this
now ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator FerPtUSon. Mr. Chairman, at this time, while we are on
that particular record, I want to offer into the record, back at the time
we put in this ad from the International Book Store, the remarks of
the report of 1948, page 342, Guide to Subversive Organizations and
Publications, on May 14, 1951, House Committee on Un-American
Activities, page 131.
The Chairman. That will go in in connection with the other offer?
Senator Ferguson. Yes ; with the ad.
The Chairman. All right.
I think you are going to take up considerable time here, in having
the witness look up through the labyrinth of testimony. _
Mr. Lattimore. May I have some assistance, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. I think probably it would be well to defer the mat-
ter until a later date.
Mr. Lattimore. It is all right with me.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I am sorry, sir.
The Chairman. I want to say that I understand a request was made
for a continuation of the hearing by Mr Fortas.
Mr. Fortas. I said, Mr. Chairman, that I had engagements Satur-
day and Sunday out of town, that it would be possible for me to fly
back and get here Monday morning, but it would be very difficult, in-
deed. But I could get back Wednesday morning.
The Chairman. We are deferring other committees. I have put
over the Appropriations Committee today in order to be here. I am
going to put over the Judiciary Committee on Monday in order to go
on. We just must go through with it to a conclusion. I am sorry to
say that we just cannot accommodate you in that respect.
Mr. Fortas. I should say. Mr. Chairman, that I made the other
arrangements on the basis of Mr. Moi-ris' kind statement to me that
the committee would have to finish by Friday night. Is that not true?
Mr. Morris. No, I did not, Mr. Fortas. 1 said that we had a hear-
ing scheduled for Monday, and I gave as the reason why we could not
begin on Wednesday as you suggested the fact that we would have to
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3081
finish this week this hearing because of the other engagement on Mon-
day.
Mr. FoRTAS. That is what I tried to say, briefly though.
Mr. JMoRBis. That made no mention of Friday.
Mr. FoRTAS. You said this week.
Mr. Morris. I did.
Mr. FoRTAS. As I understand it. the chairman is now suggesting
that we go on Monday.
The Chairman. We will go on with this hearing because the Sen-
ator from Michigan here, who is i member of the Appropriations
Committee, and also other Senators, are detained. We just have to
conclude this so as to go on to other work.
Today I had to adjourn the Appropriations Committee so as to
come back here. 1 am sorry to say that our condition is such that we
just cannot always accommodate the May we would like to accommo-
date.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Chairman, might I suggest that we hold
the hearing on Saturday also ?
The Chairman. Yes, sir, we will be here on Saturday also.
Mr. FoRTAs. It is absolutely impossible for me to go and be here
on Saturday.
The Chairman. You can have some other member of your firm here.
Mr. FoRTAS. There is no one else who is considering this case, sir.
The Chairman. I am sorry not to be able to accommodate you, but
the work is so, here, that we just have to put in every hour, as you may
see since you have been up here, as you know without being told of it.
Mr. FoRTAS. I know, Senator, but I did make this engagement on
the basis of what I understood Mr. Morris to say, and I cannot cancel
it.
Mr. Morris. There was no mention that we would not have any-
thing on Saturday.
Mr. FoRTAS. I understood you to say Friday night. If I misunder-
stood you, I am sorry.
The Chairman. I wish I could accommodate you, Mr. Fortas. I
am sincere in that; but it just cannot be done; that is all there is
to it. You have other members of your firm.
Mr. FoRTAS. I do have other members of my firm, but there is no-
body who is familiar with this matter. However, you will have to give
me a little time.
The Chairman. I will have to deny your request, that is all. I am
sorry to do it.
I do not think we should delay the committee to look up something
through that record at this time. I would like to go on.
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, in addition to the statements on
the subject of the recognition of Red China, at this conference that
we were discussing, I have some supplementary statements in favor
•of that at the same time which I desire
The Chairman. I do not know what question you are addressing
this to.
Mr. Lattimore. I am addressing this to the point in my statement
where I say "I present for your record quotations from these and
other men who advocated recognition of Red China."
The Chairman. Very well. You may proceed and present that, and
the Chair will pass on it. We will go over it.
30S2 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
I may say to you that I am going to pass on these things as to whether
or not they are material or in line with the hearing. I am gomg to
pass on them just as soon as I can.
(For the material referred to see exhibit 47 < which appears on p.
3T03 of appendix I, pt. 10.) ^ , -,.-,1.1,^^1,1
Mr Lattimore. A member of this committee did his best to help
Mr Stassen As "evidence," Mr. Stassen cited the fact that I made
the' not very brilliant or original remark that there was a "new situa-
tion" in Asia. "That meant the recognition of Communist China,
doesn't it ?'' asked Senator .Smith, eagerly coming to his aid. "That i&
right," said Stassen. i -n x-
Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know why Professor
Lattimore has put in the words "eagerly coming to his aid."
What is the basis for any such statement as that, Mr. Lattimore i
Mr. Lattimore. That is 'the impresson I got from reading the tran-
^^ Senator Smith. Is there anything in the transcript that reads that?
That is another part of your imagination. I guess you got that from
your epidermis that you referred to yesterday, the feeling. .
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Smith. Whv are you justified m saying that i
Mr. Latcimore. I think that Mr. Stassen had made a not at all con-
vincing statement and that he received immediate support.
Senator Smith. I asked the question. According to what you said,,
that meant the recognition of Communist China, does it not ? That is
a question, is it not?
Mr Lattimore. It is a question and it is a leading question.
Senator Smith. Maybe it is leading, but why do you say I was
eagerly coming to his aid? .
Mr. "Lattimore. Because my impression was that it was a leading
question, and for the purpose of leading him to
Senator Smith. Do you have any reason on earth why 1 should
want to come to Mr. Stassen's aid?
Mr. Lattimore. None ; except the impression I have here.
Senator Smith. That is just your imagination at work; is it not?
Mr Lattimore. My interpretation of a written text, Senator.
Senator Smith. There is nothing in that text that says anything.
Senator Ferguson. Of course, Mr. Lattimore, it is also trying to
infer that the Senator did it in bad faith. Is not that what you wanted
to convey to the public?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Ferguson. Then why did you use it?
Mr. Lattimore. There is no implication of bad faith.
Senator Ferguson. Then why did you use it?
Mr. Lattimore. The indication is that this was a statement that
might be strengthened to imply the recognition of Communist China
and Senator Smith had helped Mr. Stassen to make that, to carry that
inference further. ^ ^ -, o ^^^ ^ 4.
Senator Ferguson. You accuse Stassen of bad faith, do you not,
in that record ? ^ ,-, . .i
]Mr. Latttmore. No, I don't accuse Stassen of anything more than
j ust trying to get on in the world.
Senator Ferguson. And not of bad faith ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3083
Mr. LAi^riMORE. Not of bad faith, no, just trying to get on in the
world.
Senator Smith. You think then that any time a committee member
asks a question to clear up the statement of a witness, that that is
eagerly helping, for the witness that you referred to, eagerly coniing
to his aid. That is what you said, did you not ? And you said it with-
out any foundation.
Mr. Lattimore, That is simply my impression on reading the
transcript. If I misinterpreted you, I would be glad to change it.
The Chaiemax. You are making that a part of your oath here,-
bef ore this committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. 'V\'liat, this statement here ?
The Chairman. Yes, certainly.
Mr. Lattimore. Surely.
Senator Smith. We might ask him to prove that now. I think that
would make a good point.
The Chairman. We might have to go into your mental processes
in order to find out if you were eager.
Senator Smith. That just goes to show, Mr. Chairman, the totaL
irresponsibility of this witness' statements, without foundation.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, you say you did not accuse Mr.
Stassen of bad faith.
The Chairman. He said so. He testified to it here today.
Senator Ferguson. I want to go back on page 32, where you ac-
cuse him, that —
Stasseii tried to escape by doing acts on the flying trapeze, as it he were a road-
show McCarthy swinging through the air with the greatest of ease from "205
names" to "57" names —
and all the rest of it. You mean that that sentence does not infer
bad faith.
Mr. Lattimore. I think that sentence infers great agility.
Senator Ferguson. Do you pretend as a scholar and as a teacher
in a college that your answer is an answer to the question that I asked ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
The Chairman. You will proceed with your reading. Everybody
is in bad faith, excepting Mr. Lattimore.
Senator Smith. That seems to be the case.
Mr. Lattimore. How much more silly can the part-time president
of a great university get ?
Senator Ferguson. Now, who are you talking about ?
Mr. Lattimore. Stassen.
Senator Ferguson. I have been talking about a Johns Hopkins pro-
fessor, and I wondered whether or not you had come into that.
Mr. Lattimore. How much more silly can the part-time president
of a great university get ?
Senators, if you are really interested in the future of our country —
and I am sure that you are — you will look into your minds and hearts
and try to find the answer to the real and shocking question, "Why
does a man of Stassen's stature engage in irresponsible and false ac-
cusations of pro-Communist views? Is this committee lending itself
to tlie encouragement of such destructive activities by the politically
ambitions, the fellow-travelers of witch-burning, the insecure, and the
vain and ambitious?"
3Qg4 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. You say that is not charging Mr. Stassen with bad
faith?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir. . ,
The Chairman. He is charging him with perjury. Whether that
is bad faith or not, I do not know. i • .u ^ • i ^„;„„
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, do you claim that is charging
him with good faith ? , . , . • i i i. j-„ j
Mr. Lattimore. I claim that is charging him as is clearly stated
here, with irresponsibility. , . ^ -.i i i j -4. „^„„
Senator Ferguson. And that is not bad faith when he does it under
^^Mr. Latiimore. Senator, you are a lawyer. You would have to de-
fine that. I can't. ., .. • 19
Senator Ferguson. Then why did you use it— it is your word i
Mr. Lattimore. I used the term "irresponsible." .. . . ■^■.9
Senator Ferguson. And you say that is accusing him ot bad taith?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; it is not accusing him of bad faith.
The Chairman. All right; go ahead.
Mr Sour^vine. Mr. Lattimore, do you think that a witness, or any
other person, can use words of invective and then escape their legal
effect by claiming that they have no knowledge of their legal ellect^
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine-
The Chairman. Just answer that "Yes" or "No," and we will see
where we will get. . , , ^ • „
Mr. Lattimore. My answer is that I am incapable ot answering
that question. • t i tt
The Chairman. Mr. Lattimore, are you a teacher in Johns ±iop-
Mns?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
The Chairman. Of what institution are you a graduate (
Mr. Lattimore. I am not a graduate of any institution.
The Chairman. Are you a graduate of any high school even?
Mr. Lattimore. I finished my studies at a school m England
The Chairman. Did you graduate from high school ? Can you not
answer that question ? • . 1 . 1 j. t
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I just want to make a point here that i
went to school in England where they do not graduate.
The Chairman. Please answer the question. Did you ever graduate
from high school ? You can answer that "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Lattimore. All right, Senator.
The Chairman. What is your answer? , , -r
Mr Lattimore. I didn't graduate from a high school. I went to
school in England; I left school at the age of 19 and there wjis no
such thing as graduation ceremonies or diploma or anything ot that
Tlie Chapman. Did you ever graduate from a grammar school?
Mr. Lattimore. No. .
Senator Jenner. Mr. Chairman, along that line, while we are on
that subject , , , , • • .i ^-
The Chairman. The reason I asked that question is the apparent
desire of this witness to avoid the consequences of his own statements
by saying that he does not understand the statement, after it has
been brought to his attention.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3085
Senator Jenner. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness a question
along that line ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, on your statement there I have no
desire whatever to escape any responsibility for what I have said.
The Chairman. I do not care what your desire is,
Mr. Lattimore. I will stand by every word that I have written in
this statement. Wliat I am declining to do is to accept legalistic para-
phrasers and rephrasings of what I have said in terms which I do not
understand.
Senator Smith. Maybe I can understand it. Let me ask you about
this: On the bottom of that paragraph, you refer to "the fellow
travelers of witch burning." Who are you talking about there ? Can
you tell us who you are referring to there ?
Mr. Lattimore. I should say that Mr. Stassen at that moment was
fellow traveling along with Senator McCarthy, and I should say that
Senator McCarthy is a graduate witch burner.
Senator Jenner. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Smith. Those are the only ones that you refer to there?
Mr. Lattimore. Those are the only ones that I have at the moment.
Senator Ferguson. I suppose you are not imputing bad faith in
that answer that yau made about Senator McCarthy and Mr. Stassen ?
Mr. Lattimore. I think there is a difference there.
Senator Ferguson. You think that is bad faith?
Mr. Lattimore. I think there is a difference between Senator Mc-
Carthy and Stassen. I think Mr. McCarthy is capable of bad faith.
I think Mr. Stassen is just too slippery. That is, the question of bad
faith and good faith probably doesn't alarm him.
Senator Jenner. You say you are an academic specialist on the
Far East?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Jenner. We should like to know when you are speaking
as an academic expert and when you are expressing the opinions of a
private citizen..
I will ask you this question : Are you an expert on politics, eco-
nomics, geography, or military science ?
The Chairman. On either of those, is that what you mean. Sen-
ator? '
Senator Jenner. That is right.
Mr. Lattimore. Not primarily on any of those.
Senator Jenner. Then what academic degrees do you have?
Mr. Lattimore. None whatever.
The Chairman. He has none.
Senator Jenner. He says he is an academic expert, but he has no
degrees.
Senator Smith. I believe he does have some honorary degrees.
Senator Jenner. You said you were an academic expert on the Far
East. I asked you what academic degrees you hold and -you said
"None."
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Senator Jenner. That is all I want, Mr. Chairman. He has an-
swered my question.
The Chairman. Go on with the reading.
88348— 52— pt. 9 13
3086 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. 5. In addition to the foregoing Government con-
nections, I once lectured, on invitation and without pay, to a group
of State Department personnel, on Japan. I was one of a number of
outside persons who gave similar lectures.
Mr. SoiJRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, 1 think the committee needs a little
more information on that subject.
Did you lecture on more than one occasion, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lat'I'imore. Only that one occasion.
Mr. Sour WINE. Just one occasion?
Mr. Lattimore. That is the only occasion I can recall.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you remember when that was ?
Mr. Lattimore. May I look and see if I have the documentation on
that?
Mr. SouRwiNE. While we are waiting for that answer, is it your
statement that you did not give a series of talks or lectures for per-
sonnel of the State Department?
IMr. Lattimore. To the best of my recollection, I never did any-
thing of that kind; no.
Mr. SouRWiNE. This particular lecture that you speak of, the date
of which you are trying to get us, can you tell us how that was ar-
ranged ?
jSlr. Lattimore. I will bring in the exact date reference tomorrow,
Mr. Sourwine. It was arranged by a letter to me from someone in the
State Department. I remember being asked about that at the time of
the Tydings committee hearings, and didn't remember, and I believe
I looked it up later and found that it was Mr. — I think his name is
Francis J. Russell.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know whether Mr. John Carter Vincent
had anything to do with that ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know what position he held at that time ?
Mr. Lattimore. I couldn't recall — no.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you ever discuss with him the subject of your
lecture either before or after you made it?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I did.
Mr. Sourwine. If that date could be furnished for the record, I have
no more questions, Mr. Chairman, on that point.
The Chairman. All right. Oo ahead with your reading, Mr.
Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. Just to keep the record full at this moment, I believe
the date was probably early in 1946.
Mr. Sourwine. Tliank you.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Lattimore. 6. In 1945, on my own initiative, I wrote to Presi-
dent Truman, expressing my views on China policy.
Mr. Sourwine. I would like to ask the witness if he kept a copy of
that letter.
Mr. Laitimore. Yes, I ke])t a copy of that letter.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you have it with you?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I do.
Mr. Sourwine. Can you furnish it for the committee record ?
Mr. Lattimore. Surely.
Mr. Sourwine. I ask that that letter, as furnished and identified by
Mr. Lattimore, be placed in the record at this point.
' INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3087
The Chairman. Let us look at it first.
Mr. SouRWiNE. This is a copy, Mr. Lattimore, of the letter that you
speak of ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is a copy.
Senator Ferguson. Is it a carbon copy ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; it is a typed copy.
Senator Smith. Do you have the carbon copy ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I have a carbon copy. '
Senator Smith. An original carbon copy ?
Mr. Lattimore. The original carbon copy ; yes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. There is only one copy of this. For the informa-
tion of this committee, it is only a single page, does the Chair believe
it should be read ?
The Chairman. One moment, please ; we have not looked at it.
Senator Smith, will you take over the chair, please? I have another
assignment.
Senator Ferguson. I move, Mr. Chairman, that the letter to the
President be made a part of the record, and if there is any question
about it it may be compared with the carbon copy.
Senator Smith (presiding). Without objection, that will be done,
(Letter referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 473" and is as follows :)
Exhibit No. 473
June 10, 1945.
Hon. Hat.ry S. Truman,
President of the United States.
Dear Mr. President: When Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek, on the recom-
mendation of President Roosevelt, appointed me his political adviser in 1941, the
policy of the United States was to support a united China. There appears now
to be a major change in our policy, which may invite the danger of a political
and even a territorial division of China and the further danger of conllict and
rivalry between America and Russia.
Until quite recently, great care was taken to avoid any inference that America,
in aiding China as a nation, was committing itself to all-out support of one party
in China's domestic affairs. There now appears to be a fundamental change.
Public statements by men regarded as spokesmen for American policy encourage
many Chinese to believe that America now identities the Chinese Government
with one party and only one party, commits itself to the maintenance of that
party, and may in the future support that party in suppressing its rivals.
Such a belief among Chinese may make Russians feel that America has led
the way in committing itself to one party in China, and that Russia would be
justified in following that lead and committing itself to the other major party.
As a consequence, we may be heading straight into a situation in which political
partisanship and rivalry for control of strategic geographical zones will be the
actual starting point for any discussion of far-eastern issues between America
and Russia.
In the eyes of many people such a development would mean that America it-
self, long the supporter of China's political and territorial integrity, had initiated
a new policy identified with the political and territorial partition of China.
These considerations point to the possibility of grave crisis and make me feel
it my duty as a citizen to lay before you, Mr. President, the opinion that the
crisis cannot be averted by approaching the problem through the politics of
either China or Russia. The first step toward a solution must be to correct the
alarmingly rapid drift of current American policy.
With the utmost earnestness, I venture to urge you to have America's policy
toward China impartially reviewed by advisers who are not associated with
either the formulation or the implementation of that policy as recently prac-
ticed.
Resi)ectfully yours,
[s] Owen Lattimore.
OL.
3088 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Smith. Are we ready to proceed? Do you have some
further questions ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Not immediately, sir.
Senator Smith. I would like to ask Mr. Lattimore one question.
On the strength of that letter which you wrote to the President,
you had a conference with the President?
Mr. LATTiMOitE. That is right.
Senator Smith. And he gave you 3 minutes ?
Mr. Lattimore. Just about.
Senator Smith. All right ; go ahead.
Mr. Latpimore. I didn't have a stop watch with me.
Senator Smith. But you said in your document here it was 3 min-
utes, did you not?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; that is my recollection. But it was a relative
order of magnitude that I made.
The President, in response, asked me to come to see him, and I did.
Our conference lasted about 3 minutes. Neither my letter nor my
visit had the slightest effect on American policy. This is the only time,
in more than 25 years, that I ever took the initiative in writing to a
President of the United States.
Senator Ferguson. Wlien he replied, did he only ask you to come
and see him ? He did not give you any opinion, did he ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have a copy of his reply here, which I will be glad
to submit, if you want it.
Senator Ferguson. I would like to see it.
JNIr. Lattimore. I think the reply says : "Glad to see you some time."
Senator Ferguson. I want to know whether it was an answer to your
letter or what. You say now there has been nothing done by our
Government after the date of the letter of June 1945, indicating that
the President followed anything you had to say in that letter ?
]Mr. Lattisiore. Indicating that my visit had the slightest effect on
American policy.
Senator Ferguson. You say there is nothing?
Mr. Lattimore. Not in my opinion.
Senator Ferguson. I will have some questions later on it.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Is that the only occasion when you visited a Presi-
dent of the United States, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is the only occasion on which I have ever
visited Mr. Truman.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I asked if that was the only occasion on which you
visited a President of the United States.
Mr. Lattimore. I am sorry, I thought you said the President. A
President ; no. I also saw President Roosevelt several times, in con-
nection with my work with Chiang Kai-shek.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I will reserve questions for a later time, Mr.
Chairman.
Senator Ferguson. Did you leave with the President any of your
writings?
Mr. Lattimore. My book, you mean ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. No; I didn't.
Senator Ferguson. Or any writing, outside of the letter?
Mr. Lattimore. I left with him two memoranda.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3089
Senator Ferguson. Have you copies of the memoranda ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have copies of those memoranda. Incidentally,
there is some supplementary correspondence about arranging a con-
ference. Would you like to see that, too ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes ; I would like to see it all.
Mr. Lattimore, when you gave us the first letter, why did you not
give us the memoranda that you left ?
Mr. Lattimore. You asked for the letter. I have the whole lot
here, ready to hand over. I don't think it is an indication of reluc-
tance.
Mr. FoRTAS. May we take a recess while these letters are read?
We have been going for about an hour and 20 minutes.
Senator Smith. Wait until he asks about these memoranda.
Senator Ferguson. I move, Mr. Chairman, that we make all of
these records a part of the record.
Senator Smith. Does that include the memoranda you were talking
about?
Senator Ferguson. Yes. Is the document attached here ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; it is attached.
Senator Ferguson. All right.
Senator Smith. That will be done subject to the decision of the
chairman, if there is any reason why the communication the President
makes to a third party should not go into the record. I am not too
familiar with that rule or policy.
(For the correspondence referred to see exhibit No. 530A, B, C, D,
E, pp. 3386 to 3388.)
Senator Smith. We will recess for 5 minutes.
(At this point a short recess was taken, after which the hearing
was resumed.)
Senator Smith. We will proceed with the hearing. Are there
any further questions before we proceed with reading the statement ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, I have been asked by our custodian
of records to be sure that the witness and counsel understand that the
transcripts of the Vincent testimony which we handed over to them
are the committee file copies, and should not be taken with them.
Senator Smith. Yes.
All right, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, at this point I have found the
relevant passages in the transcript about the quotation from Solution
in Asia that was shown to Mr. Vincent — No, it was apparently not
shown to him, but read to him. May I indicate it ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. What page is that ?
Mr. Lattimore. 3246.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Of the transcript?
Mr. Lattimore. Of the transcript.
Mr. SouRwiNE. And from page of Solution in Asia ?
Mr. Lattimore. It refers to as quoted on page 139.
Senator Ferguson. Do you have a copy of that Solution in Asia?
Mr. SouRWiNE. There is one here.
■ What is the quotation which you say was read out of context ?
Mr. Lattimore (reading) :
The fact that the Soviet Union always stands for democracy is not to be over-
looked. It stands for democracy because it stands for all the other things. Here
In America we are in the habit of taking a narrow view of foreign claimants to
3090 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
the status of democracy. If China or Russia or some other alien people do not
measure up to the standards of some particular American modification of Anglo-
Saxon democracy, we say that it is not democratic. We are going to find our-
selves boxing with shadows instead of maneuvering in politics, if we stick to
this habit. The fact is that for most of the people in the world today, what
constitutes democi-acy in theory is more or less irrelevant. What moves people
to act, to try to line up with one party or country and not with another, is the
difference between what is more democratic and less democratic in practice.
Mr. SouRwiNE. What context was that taken out of?
Mr. Lattihiore. That was taken out of the context, the previous
paragraph, which begins "To all of these peoples — " that is, peoples of
the frontier of Russia —
the Russians and the Soviet Union have a great power of attraction. In their
eyes, rather doubtfully in the eyes of the older generation, the Soviet Union
stands for strategic security, economic prosperity, technological progress, mirac-
ulous medicine, free education, equality of opportunity, and democracy, a pow-
erful combination —
then that goes on —
The fact that the Soviet Union also stands for democracy —
which is clearly linked to the previous statement —
In their eyes —
is not to be overlooked.
Senator Ferguson. But does it not indicate clearly that there was
something about it; it was not taken out of context to mislead, was it?
Let me see 3^our book.
In the transcript, do the words "also stands" indicate that there was
something else in your book before about it ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; it indicates the previous paragraph, you see,
the two.
Senator Ferguson. Yes ; but there was not any attempt to leave the
impression there were not any paragraphs before this?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes. The whole statement is introduced, the whole
passage is introduced, by the statement that "in their eyes'' it looks
like this, not in my eyes, but in their eyes.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Lattimore; that paragraph you have just read
has several sentences. The second sentence says :
Here in America we are in the habit of taking a narrow view of foreign
claimants to the status of democracy.
Did you mean that as you wrote it, to cover only what we here in
America are in the habit of from the standpoint of the eyes of the
peoples of Russia and the Soviet Union, or from the standpoint of the
peojiles of Asia that you were referring to in the paragraph above?
Mr. Lattimore. It is a little bit complicated, your question, Mr.
Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. We will reduce it to a simpler form.
Is all of this paragraph which you read, which you say was taken
out of context, is air of that paragraph to be read as an expression of
what these "peoples" referred to in the paragraph above?
Mr. Lattimore. All of it is to be taken in context with the intro-
ductory statement that, politically, the Soviet Union, as of 1945 had
a great power of attraction to people on its frontiers.
I then describe the reasons for that power of attraction, as I thought
it appeared to the eyes of the people affected.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3091
The statement as presented in the transcript looks as if I had merely
given a eulogistic description of Soviet Russia, as my own description,
without reference to the opinions of the people whom I had previously
mentioned. I think that is a serious distortion of context.
Mr. SouRwaNE. Mr. Lattimore, there are a number of separate sen-
tences in that paragraph, are there not?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. SouEWiNE. How about this sentence:
We are going to find ourselves boxing with shadows instead of maneuvering
In politics if we stick to this habit.
Who is the "we" that you were referring to there ?
Mr. Lattimore. "We" is primarily the United States, but I think
it might be stretched to include also the democracies of Western
Europe with interests in Asia.
Mr. SouRAviNE. Then you ^ay:
The fact is that for most of the people in the world today, what constitutes
democracy in theory is more or less irrelevant.
Wlien you said "fact" there, were you referring only to a fact in
the eyes of all of these people that you mentioned in the paragraph
above?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I was referring to a fact in my own opinion.
Mr. Sourwt:ne. But in three sentences above that, where you said,
"The fact that the Soviet Union" — you were not referring to a fact
in your own opinion; is that right?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I was referring to a fact in the eyes of the
people to whom I referred.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you think counsel for the committee understood
that, and deliberately quoted this out of context?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I presumed that they had graduated from more
grammar schools, high schools, colleges, and so forth, than I had. If
I was able to w^rite it, they ought to be able to read it.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I have no more questions, IMr. Chairman.
Senator Ferguson. How could the previous paragraph that you
claim was left out after this sentence :
Here in America we are in the habit of taking a narrow view of foreign
claimants to the status of democracy.
Mr. Lattimore. I think the two paragraphs are very closely tied
together. Senator Ferguson.
Senator Fergusox. Well, who is the "we" here? Here in America?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Senator Ferguson. That was not saying there that the people of
Russia
Mr. Lattimore. No — here in America, we Americans are in the
habit of taking a very narrow view of foreign claimants to the status
of democracy.
In other words, we do not regard the Russians as democratic, but,
for the reasons given above, there is the possibility that other people,
who don't know the United States, might take the Russians as demo-
cratic.
That is a political fact which we have to take in consideration, if
we want to set up a counter program that makes those people more
attracted to us and our policy than to the Russians and their policy.
3092 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
In fact, somewhere else I state that the United States has more power
of attraction over Asia than any other country, if we will use it rightly.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know what Mr. Vincent said about your
paragraph, whom you have quoted here as being able to be an Am-
bassador, and placed him on a par with some of the other members of
the State Department in the higher brackets?
He said: "I would say that that was a misconception of commu-
nism." . Would you say he was correct?
Mr. Lattimore. May I see that ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes, and it was not on a leading question, either.
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Vincent, after having this truncated quota-
tion read to him, is asked: "Now that you have heard it" — that is,
without the part which I, the author, regard as essential — "does it
have any connotation in your mind as being pro-Communist or anti-
Communist?" .
Mr. Vincent replied : " I would say that that was a misconception
of communism." Mr. Vincent is replying in 1952 to a passage written
in 1945, published in 1945. In other words, at a time when the entire
situation had greatly altered.
Senator Ferguson. Do you now say that it is a misconception of
communism ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I would not say that. I would say that at the
present time this kind of power of attraction of the Russians over
neighboring people in Asia, has probably diminished in a great many
cases. I do not know of any cases in which it may have increased.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, can you see anything in that
paragraph that may have led the Communist Party to adopt your
book as a background on the Communist line in having told in the
same ad with Foster and Kahn's book. Taking your paragraph, can
you see any reason that they may do that ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Ferguson, I have no knowledge of the proc-
esses of the Communist mind, or why they choose my book, or any-
body else's book as general reading.
Senator Smith. Mr. Lattimore, you have complained, as I under-
stand, about something being read out of context. Now, the para-
graph that you referred to as being read out of context, is a paragraph
consisting of seven sentences, is it not?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right. At least I will accept your count.
I have not made the count myself.
Senator Smith. You start off one of them in saying: "Here in
America, we are in the habit of taking a narrow view of foreign
claimants to the status of democracy."
There is nothing in that sentence connected with any preceding
paragraph or sentence, is there?
Mr. Lattimore. That particular sentence, I think, is merely a state-
ment of fact.
Senator Smith. Well, yes. Now the next sentence is also in the
same category, is it not? It does not refer back to anybody's eyes,
or the eyes of any particular people ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; here the inference is very clear that I am re-
ferring to the fact that Americans, rightly, in my opinion, do not
reroiJfnize Russia as a democracy.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3093
Then I go on to say —
but we are boxing shadows if we don't realize that what the Russians have to
offer in the most illiterate and backward parts of Asia may appear to people
there to be democratic. If we are going to meet that attraction, we have to
set up something that will beat the Russians' attraction.
Senator Smith. That is not what you said in the book, is it? You
are adding that now.
Mr. Lattimore. It is part of the entire thread running through
the book, Senator.
Senator Smith. Then the complaint that you have to make against
the committee is for not putting the whole book in, printing the whole
book?
Mr. Lattimore. The complaint I have is that this particular para-
graph is so clearly related to my statement of "other peoples' opin-
ions" that it is a quotation out of context to put it in in a manner
that would lead the hearer, when he merely has it read to him, to
believe that it was a statement of my opinion.
Senator Smith. It appears to me that it would be a statement of
your opinion. But that is a matter for construction. I suppose
we need not waste our time on that.
All right, you may proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. Very little has been said about me before this sub-
committee that wasn't already in the record of the hearings before
the Ty dings subcommittee. Most of it is just a regurgitation of the
same vague nonsense. To refresh your memories, let me read to you
the conclusions of the majority of that subcommittee.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Lattimore, would you indicate, please, where,
in the hearings before this subcommittee, has been regurgitated 1,400
pages, or any portion of it, of the Tydings' hearings ?
Mr. Lattimore. I would say the Budenz testimony, and a lot of
the rest.
Mr. Sourwine. Are you saying that Mr. Budenz testified before
this committee the same way that he testified before the Tydings'
committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am saying that he regurgitated the same non-
sense, with some additional embellishments.
Mr. Sourwine. Since we would prefer to use more precise and
descriptive words than your adjectives, will you answer my question,
please ?
Is it your statement that Mr. Budenz testified before this committee
substantially the same as he testified before the Tydings' committee?
Senator Smith. Can you not answer that question, whether he did
or whether he did not ?
Mr. Lattimore. He did and he did not. Senator. He repeated his
Tydings' testimony, or most of it, and he added some more. I come
to that later in my statement.
Mr. Sour"\vine. Is it your statement, sir, that Mr. Budenz in the
testimony before this committee, contradicted anything that he had
said before the Tydings' committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. Contradicted?
Mr. Sourwine. Yes, sir. Did he, before this committee contradict
himself in what he had said before the Tydings' committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't recall offhand that he did.
3094 LNSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did he before the Tydings committee say anything
which contradicted anything he hiter said before this committee?
INIr. Lattimore. Before the Tydings' committee he was cross-exam-
ined and he contradicted things he had previously said.
Mr. SouRWixE. I wish you would answer the question, sir.
Mr. Laitimore. Before the Tydings' committee he could hardly
contradict something he hadn't said yet before this committee. When
he came to this committee, he obviously had to watch his step in deal-
ing with his previous Tydings' testimony.
Senator Smith. I thought your complaint the other day, Mr. Latti-
more, was that he said more than he said before the Tydings' com-
mittee, and things differently.
Mr. Lattimore. I deal with that later in my statement.
Senator Smith. You did make that statement, did you not?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I did.
Senator Smith. All right, proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. I am not sure that it comes later in my statement ; I
think it comes previously, where I deal with his testimony about
Japan. I am not sure whether it is earlier or previously.
This is quoting from tlie Tj^dings' committee report, pages 72 and
73:
Owen Lattimore is a writer and a scholar who has been charged with a record
of procommunism going back many years. There is no legal evidence before us
whatever to support this charge, and the weight of all other information indicates
that it is not true * * * "We find absolutely no evidence to indicate that his
writings and other expressions have been anything but the honest opinions and
convictions of Owen Lattimore. Similar opinions and convictions vis-a-vis the
Far East are entertained by many Americans, about whom no conceivable sug-
gestion of Communist proclivities could be entertained. We do not find that Mr.
Lattimore's writings follow the Communist or any other line, save as his very
consistent position on the Far East may be called the Lattimore line.
In the hearings before this subcommittee there has, however,
been some addition to, and some subtraction from, the cast of char-
acter. The most important subtraction is Freda Utley, who has not —
at least not yet — ^been accorded the publicity facilities of these hear-
ings. Miss Utley is an ex-Communist, with a record of pro-Nazi
utterances.
Senator Ferguson. Will you give us the data on the pro-Nazi
utterances ?
]\rr. LATrmoRE. I have that data in the transcript of the Tydings'
committee hearings. Just let me see if I have it here.
Senator Ferguson. What are you quoting from ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am quoting from a review in Catholic World by
Leonard J. Schweitzer, of Freda Utley's the High Cost of Vengeance.
Senator Smith. We will not accept any review, also, that you have
a quotation from.
Senator Ferguson. We want to know what you are quoting from.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You have already testified under oath that Miss
Utley is an ex-Communist with a record of pro-Nazi utterances.
We want to know what the utterances are.
Mr. Lattimore. Let me see if I have any direct quotes here.
Senator Ferguson. Surely you did not take that from an editorial
of some opinion of hers ?
Mr. Lattimore. Here is a direct quote.
Mr. SouRwiNE. By whom ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3095
Mr. Lattimore. A direct quote of Freda Utley, from her book, The
High Cost of Vengeance.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you have the book ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't have the book with me.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you know whether that quotation is taken out
of context ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think it is.
Mr. Sourwine. Is that what you are basing your charge on, that she
has a record of pro-Nazi utterances ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am basing it on this and a number of other
quotations.
Senator Smith. Have you ever read the book ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes; I have.
Senator Smith. Do you have the book ?
Mr. Lattimore. Have we a copy with us ?
I have a copy at home in Bahimore. I don't have it with me.
Senator Ferguson. I suggest we wait until we get the book.
Senator Smith. Go ahead.
Mr. Lattimore. Before the Tydings' committee she demonstrated
her personal animus against me. This committee hired her as a
member of its staff, and she undoubtedly aided in recruiting witnesses
and in rehearsing their stories.
Mr. Sourwine. If the Chairman would pardon me, I would like
to ask Mr. Lattimore to name one witness who was recruited by Miss
Utley.
Mr. Lattimore. I cannot name any witness. I have not been inside
the proceedings of this committee. That is why I wrote "undoubt-
edly."
Mr. Sourwine. "What do you mean by "undoubtedly"? "Un-
doubtedly" means "without doubt."
Mr. Latfimore. Without doubt, in my mind.
Mr. Sourwine. You do not say that.
Senator Smith. You are making a statement of fact.
Mr. Lattimore. That is clear, from the context, I think.
Senator Smith. You still understand, Mr. Lattimore, that you are
under oath, and you are making a statement of fact here, and now you
have no information to back it up ?
Mr. Lattimore. Excuse me, Senator Smith, I think I am making an
expression of strong opinion.
Senator Smith. That is not what we want here. We want facts,
as we have mentioned manj^ times.
Do you know whether or not this committee had had any witness
recruited by Miss Utley ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is mj^ opinion
Senator Smith. I am not asking your opinion. I am asking for
a fact.
Mr. Lattimore. I do not know. Senator.
Senator Smith. I did not think you did.
Mr. Souravine. Do you know whether Miss Utley rehearsed the
etory of any witness before this committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. I assume from the way in which some of those
etories were presented
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know, sir ?
3096 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know for a fact.
Senator Smith. Then you are makinjr statements here under oath,
that are not the truth, so far as you know ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am making statements of strong opinions.
Senator Smith. We do not want any more opinions. We want
statements of fact. You are sworn. If you do not know a thing to
be a fact, we do not want you to be sitting here quoting somebody
else's opinion. You are just wasting the time of everybody.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, a great many statements of opinion against
me have been freely entered into the record. Am I not to be allowed
to state my own opinions ?
Senator Smith. No; you state facts. That is what we want. If
you do not have a foundation of fact, then do not state it.
Mr. Lattimore. I do not know why she has so discreetly disappeared,
or whether her removal is permanent. My guess is that the commit-
tee, or its staff, must have concluded after this intimate dealing with
her that she was too obviously erratic and unreliable, and too clearly
an agent of the China lobby.
Senator Smith. You are "guessing" now, are you not ? You admit
you are guessing ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am stating it.
Senator Smith. And you have not a particle of information in the
■way of facts, to back that up ?
Mr. Lai^pimore. I am making my guess. I stated it as a guess.
I hope that some day the story will be told, which will give the
details of this extraordinary show of circumspection. It reminds me
of the farcical incident of the missing witness, Huber, recruited by
Joe McCarthy, to appear before the Tydings committee.
He was subpenaed at the request of the Wisconsin Senator — "the
Wisconsin whimperer," who has recently shown Mr. Luce that he can
dish it out, but he can't take it — but Huber lost his nerve at the last
moment. I've often wondered what happened to Huber and why he
has not been compelled to explain how he was recruited and by whom,
and what eventually happened.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness if he
thinks Mr. Hubei has, or has had, anything to do with this committee
or its proceedings ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no reason to believe so, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Then why do you drag him into your testimony ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am stating the case of the witness who disap-
peared, after McCarthy recruited him, and I am comparing it with the
fact that Miss Utley has not appeared after the committee recruited
her.
Senator Smith. You think that has some place in this hearing, that
paragraph you just read, do you?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir ; 1 have had — r-
Senator Smith. As a statement of fact?
Mr. Lattimore. As a statement of opinion.
Senator Smith. I say "as a statement of fact" do you contend that
is a fact?
Mr, Lattimore. "WHiat is a fact?
Senator Smith. What you have stated in that paragraph. You
know what I am talking about, Mr. Lattimore.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3097
Mr. Lattimore. Excuse me, sir. The discussion has gone on over
several subjects, and I am not quite sure what fact you are referring to.
Senator Smith. I am asking you about that paragraph you just
read. Did you introduce that as a statement of fact ? Do you under-
stand that?
Mr. Lattimore. The statement of fact that Huber was recruited by
McCarthy, that he later lost his nerve and disappeared, and so on?
Yes, I state that as a matter of fact.
Senator Smith. I am talking about what is in the paragraph, that
whole paragraph, is that a statement of fact ?
Mr. Lattimore. To the best of my belief, it is, Senator.
Senator Smith. All right ; go ahead.
Mr. Lattimore. Among the additions to the Tydings list I have
already dealt in some detail with Mr. Dooman and Mr. Stassen, and
have referred to the novel ideas of Mr. Colegrove and Mr. McGovern^
concerning my alleged recommendations about Japan.
I should now like to turn to the testimony of Barmine and FittfogeL
General BaiTnine, of course, is an ex-Communist. So is Wittfogel.
Your chairman, Senator McCarran, has indicated that this makes
them especially credible witnesses.
Senator Smith. On what do you base that, your charge against
Chairman McCarran ? Is that some more opinion of yours ?
Mr, Lattimore. That is not a charge against Senator McCarran^
Senator Smith.
Senator Smith. Is that backed up with facts, or is that mere opinion
of yours ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is a reference to Senator McCarran's introduc-
tory remarks, at the beginning of the hearings of this subcommittee.
Mr. SouRWiNE. It is your interpretation of those remarks, is it not,
sir?
Mr. Lattimore. May I read the remarks ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Is it your interpretation of those remarks or a di-
rect quote ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is not printed here as a direct quote. I would
have to look through it to see whether the words "specially credible
witnesses" do appear there directly.
Senator Smith, Or whether Senator McCarran indicated. You
say there "Your chairman, Senator McCarran, has indicated that this
makes them" — that is, the fact that they are ex-Communists — "espe-
cially credible witnesses."
Mr. Lattimore. The chairman stated :
In such an investigation as this, where a possible conspiracy is being exam-
ined, very often the only evidence obtainable derives from persons who once
participated in the conspiracy.
I think my words here are a warrantable characterization of that,
Mr. SouRwiNE. And the Senator went on :
Only eyes that witnessed the deeds, and ears that heard the words of intrigue,
can attest thereto. Thus, ex-Communists, and agents of the Government who
posed as Communists, often are the only sources of evidence of what transpired
behind doors, closed to the non-Communist world.
Do you think there is anything in that that has anything to do with
the credibility of an ex-Communist as a witness ?
3098 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I think that it is a fair inference of mine to state
that Senator McCarran has indicated that these make them especially
credible witnesses.
ISIr. SouRwiNE. Do you not see any difference between availability
and credibility?
Your shrug does not get into the record.
Mr, Lattimore. This is more lawyer language, Mr. Sourwine. I
wrote what I thought.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you think "availability" and "credibility" are
legal terms, which require a legal definition? You used that word
"credibility" — it is your word, as you said the other day. What do
you mean by it ?
Mr, Lattimore. I was referring to credibility and not availability,
and I think that my opinion there is supported by what has just been
read from Senator McCarran 's introductory statement.
Mr. Sourwine. What did you mean by the word "credibility"?
Mr. Lattimore, I meant that the committee would believe them.
Mr, Sourwine. And you think that Senator McCarran is saying
here that ex-Communists are especially entitled to be believed?
Mr, Lattimore, That was the impression that I got.
Mr, Sourwine, Do you still get that impression, now that we have
been over the language again ?
Mr. Lattimore. I still do.
Senator Smith. So you still say that Senator McCarran has indi-
cated that?
Mr, Lattimore. In my opinion, he has indicated.
Senator Smith. I am asking you for a statement of fact, Mr. Latti-
more. You seem to dodge behind your opinions. You seem to forget
that you are under oath to testify to the truth here.
Now, do you still say that Senator McCarran has indicated that
this makes them specially credible witnesses ?
Mr, Lattimore, What I am clearly stating there is my opinion, that
Senator McCarran has so stated.
Senator Smith, All right,
Mr, Lattimore. I should have assumed the contrary: that a man
who has spent his life in the Communist school of lies, deceit, and
intrigue, should always be suspect. But Senator McCarran would
apparently regard that view as proof of Communist tendencies.
Barmine was a Eed army general.
Senator Smith. He admitted, did he not, that he was Red ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, he did. That is my authority for making this
statement.
His testimony was that another Red general told him that I was a
Soviet agent in China. This was not entirely new, since Senator Mc-
Carthy liad quoted Barmine in his attack on me in March 1950, and
then dropped him.
After reading the transcript of Barmine's flimsy testimony before
your committee, I wonder if this use of fantasy and hallucination to
establish guilt is not more worthy of the Kremlin than of the United
States Senate,
Mr, Sourwine, Mr. Lattimore, have you at any point in the prepa-
ration of til is statement deliberately sought to be contemptuous of
this committee, and/or the Senate of "the United States ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3099
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir; I have deliberately sought to express a
feeling of indignation and outrage against the treatment I have
received.
Senator Smith. Wliat treatment do you refer to from this com-
mittee, so far as this committee is concerned, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. I refer to the admission of the kind of evidence that
has been heaped against me without a word of cross-examination, to
test the reliability or credibility of the witnesses.
Senator Smith. Is that all you have to say on that ? All right.
Mr. Lattimore. Barmine was a conspicuously reluctant witness be-
fore 3'ou, and in spite of leading questions by Mr. Morris and members
of this committee, and their repeated efforts to aid him in remember-
ing conversations and events between him and other Reds, supposed
to have taken place 15 or 18 years ago, his answers remained vague,
apologetic, and full of qualifications.
Barmine said that the other Red general, named Berzin, in a dis-
cussion of the possibility of opening Soviet intelligence branches along
tlie China coast, mentioned me and Joseph Barnes as "our men,"
whatever that means, in connection with the possible use of IPR per-
sonnel in China.
Here Barmine made two slips. He referred to this discussion as
taking place at the end of 1933
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, if I might interrupt there, because
of that date, would the witness indicate at what point in the transcript
of the testimony Mr. Barmine said that this discussion took place at
the end of 1933? It is the understanding of the committee staff that
Mr. Barmine said it took place in 1935.
Senator Smith. Will you point that out?
Mr, Lattimore. That is taken up in the rest of the paragraph.
Senator Smith. Can you point that out?
Mr. Lattimore. This is referring to the fact that a correction was
made later and therefore doubtless it doesn't appear in the final
transcript of the committee.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. You mean a correction in the testimony of Mr.
Barmine, sir?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Are you intending to state or imply that this com-
mittee has doctored the transcript of Mr. Barmine's testimony in
publication ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know whether the committee or its staff
doctored the testimony, or whether Barmine made a request to alter
his testimony, or what happened,
Mr. Sourwine. Are you making the charge that it was altered?
Mr. Lattimore. I am making the charge that, if I may go on with
the rest of the paragraph — I think it explains it clearly,
Mr. Sourwine, I think you should answer that right now, sir. Are
you making the charge that the testimony was altered after having
been given, that the transcript was changed for whatever reason after
the testimony had been taken clown ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am making the charge that newspapermen who
called me after the story — that newspapermen called me after the story
appeared and Barmine's story was mysteriously up-dated in later
editions of the evening papers.
3100 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Smith. What newspapermen called you? Let us get that
fact now.
JNIr. Lattimore. The man who called me was, as I remember, the
United Press man, United Press desk mail, in Baltimore.
Senator Smith. What was his name?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't remember his name.
Senator Smith. Who else called you, a newspaperman?
Mr. Lattimore. He was the only one — no, there may have been a
Baltimore Sun man who called me, too.
Senator Smith. You do not know who that was ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't.
Mr. SouRwiNE, Were you here when Mr. Barmine was testify-
ing, sir?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I wasn't.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You make the definite statement here, and a state-
ment you are offering this committee under oath, that he, meaning
Barmine, referred to this discussion as taking place at the end of 1933.
Do you know that to be so ?
Mr. Lattimore, I am making reference to the fact that two different
newspaper stories appeared.
Senator Smith. You do not know it of your own knowledge? Just
answer my question, do you know it of your knowledge or not?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, I don't know it of my own knowledge.
Mr. Sourwine. Have you read the record of Mr. Barmine's testi-
mony at that point ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I have.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know what that record shows?
Mr. Lattimore. As the record now stands, it doesn't show 1933.
Mr. Sourwine. Wliat does it show ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am not — I would have to read it again to re-
fresh my memory, but my impression is that it doesn't show very
clearly what yeai .
Mr. Sourwine. Do you mean, sir, that you are stating here, on the
basis of what one or two newspapermen, according to you, told you,
that the testimony of this witness was different from what the record
which you have read shows it to have been?
Mr. Lattimore. Not what newspapermen told me, I am basing
it on newspaper clips.
Mr. Sourwine. Are you testifying here on the basis of newspaper
clips — if you please, Mr. Lattimore — are you testifying here on the
basis of newspaper clips that the testimony of Mr. Barmine was
actually different from what the record before this committee shows
it to have been?
;Mr. Lattimore. I am testifying that after the story appeared, I was
called for comment because 1933 was mentioned and I said "Wliy,
my goodness, in 1933 I had nothing to do with the Institute of Pacific
Relations." And the later stories carried the date 1935 or 1936.
Mr. Sourwine. And are you presuming to conclude from that that
the record of this committee was changed, rather than accepting the
possibility that a newspaperman might have been mistaken?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't say that, Mr. Sourwine.
IVIr. Sourwine. What do you say, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. I say that when I pointed out to newspapermen
who called me after the story appeared
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3101
Mr. SouKwiNE. Pointed out what ?
Mr. Lattimore. That in 1933 I had no connection with the In-
stitute of Pacific Relations, and that I was in the United States
and not in China from 1933 to the autumn of 1934, after this, after
I had been called on this point, Barmine's story was mysteriously
up-dated in later editions.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Of the evening papers, is that not what you said?
Mr. Lattimore. Either the evening papers or the morning papers,
I can't recollect now.
Senator Smith. How about the rest of the sentence, to refer to
1935 or 1936 ? You do not know now whether it was 1935 or 1936, do
you?
Mr. Lattimore. The record reads, page 194 of the printed record,
that Mr. Barmine said that he was appointed to the presidency
of some trust that he was working for at the end of 1933.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, I do not believe that the witness^
interpretation of what the record says is of any particular value
here.
If he has a portion of that record which he believes establishes
his contention that Mr. Barmine said 1933, I think he should offer
that portion of the record and let it go in now.
Mr. Fortas. Mr. Chairman, will you give a witness a minute to
look at the record, since there is a question about the record?
Senator Smith. I thought we had it there.
Mr. Fortas. He hasn't had a chance to look at it since he has been
asked the question.
Senator Smith. Mr. Lattimore do you have in your possession, I
mean for your own use, a copy of that transcript ?
]VIr. Lattimore. Yes, I do.
Senator Smith. Then I am going to suggest that if you can find
any justification or statement about the 1933 and will send it out
any time within the next 10 days, we will look it over and see it.
That is to save time.
All right, Mr. Sourwine, have you some other questions?
Mr. Sourwine. Yes, I have one more question.
Mr. Lattimore, you stated and stressed the fact that you had no
connection with the IPR until 1934. As a matter of fact, did you
not attend the IPR conference in 1933 ?
Mr. Lattimore. I attended it as a delegate. I was not an em-
ployee, no.
Mr. Sourwine. You think the attendance at that conference was
not a connection with IPR ?
Mr. Lattimore. I will accept your amendment, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever an employee of IPR ?
Mr. Lattimore. I was an employee of IPR from the beginning
of 1934.
Mr. Sourwine. Until when ?
Mr. Lattimore. Until 1941.
Mr. Sourwine. You are speaking now of your connection with
the magazine Pacific Affairs?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Sourwine. As editor of that magazine, you were an em-
ployee of IPR?
88348— 52— pt. 9 14
3102 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I was an employee of the Pacific Council of the
IPR, not the American IPR.
Senator Smith. You may proceed.
Mr. Lattimore. Barmine also said our names had been suggested
because they needed men who had "military training" (p. 1933). I
have had no military experience whatever, and I doubt if Barnes
had, either. When Senator Eastland asked him, "Just exactly what
did he say about Mr. Lattimore?" Mr. Barmine answered eva-
sively, "You see, I want to emphasize that this project which was
finally never realized by me was only a very small part of the prepa-
ration. This was 15 or 16 years ago — to tell you exactly what words,
I would not like to say anything I don't remember very firmly."
Again, how vague can testimony be and still be permitted to be used
to blacken a man's name?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Will you read that sentence again, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. The last one ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. Again, how vague can testimony be and still be
permitted to be used to blacken a man's name ?
Mr. Sourwin:^. Go ahead, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. Since everything about Barmine's General Berzin
sounds rather fishy I tried to look him up on Barmine's book One
Who Survived. Sprinkled all through this book, in both the original
French version and the American version, which seems to have been
stepped up considerably for local consumption, are a great many
names of important Russians with whom Barmine claimed to have
rubbed shoulders. One name that is entirely missing in both ver-
sions is that of General Berzin. Yet in his testimony Barmine makes
a great deal of Berzin as a real big shot under whom he worked for
15 years. Why does he mention him here for the first time? Inci-
dentally, neither version of Barmine's book, of course, mentions Jo-
seph Barnes or Owen Lattimore or the IPR.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, might I ask one brief question?
Senator Smith. Yes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Lattimore, do you know if there was a Gen-
eral Berzin?
Mr. Lattimore. I have no idea.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Go ahead.
Mr. Lattimore. Barmine also stated that a General Krivitsky in
Paris in 1938 corroborated Berzin's statement about Barnes and me.
General Krivitsky also wrote a book and testified before the House
Un-American Activities Committee in 1938. In neither place did
he mention my name. Nor did he mention Joseph Barnes or the IPR.
Wliat is more significant, he did not mention either the Red gen-
erals, Berzin or Barmine.
Mr. SouRwiNE. May I inquire once more, Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Smith. Yes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Lattimore, did you use research methods to
endeavor to ascertain whether there was a General Berzin ?
Mr. Laitimore. No, sir, there are no research methods at my dis-
posal to determine that fact.
Mr. Sourwixe. Did you make your best efforts to determine whether
there was a General Berzin ?
Mr. Lattimore. Having no means, I made no efforts.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3103
Mr. SouRwiNE. Go ahead, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. In short, Barmine's testimony can best be described
in the Avords of Barmine. When Senator Ferguson asked him whether
(he FBI had the "evidence" that he had just given about Barnes and
Lattimore, he said, "Well, if you call it evidence — " (p. 211).
It reminds me of a little story in Barmine's book, which I submit
herewith as an exhibit, describing how a Soviet military intelligence
agent, when he takes a powder and runs out of the Soviet police
state, hires out as an expert on Soviet skulduggery and, when he
runs out of real information, has to invent a lot of new stuff in order
to stay in the racket. It reads to me like a very good description of
Barmine himself as well as of his native American counterpart,
Budenz.
Mr. SouRwiNE. What book are you referring to, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. Here, Barmine's book, One Who Survived.
I would like to hand up at this moment a copy of the relevant part
of the text of Barmine's book.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Have you read that book ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I have.
Senator Smith. That will be submitted subject to the Chairman
passing on it when he goes over it.
(The material referred to was marked exhibit 475 and appears in
the appendix on p. 3704.)
Mr. Lattimore. I turn now to the other ex-Communist, Karl
August Wittfogel. In his testimony Wittfogel tried to creat two
impressions — that in the early years of our acquaintance we were
friendly with each other on the basis of mutual Communist sympa-
thies, and that after he finally stopped being a Communist, in 1939,
he broke off relations with me. Both of these pictures, drawn by Witt-
fogel's inventive hindsight, are maliciously false.
I first knew Dr. Wittfogel in Peking in 1935 and 1936. He has at-
tempted to show that at this time I knew he was a Communist and
must therefore have been one myself. He does not claim that he ever
told me he had been or was still a Communist. I did not consider him
one. He had been rescued from Hitler's Germany by a committee of
British scholars, an active member of which was the distinguished
authority on economic history, K. H. Tawney, a stanch anti-Com-
munist.
The flimsy statements by which Wittfogel attempted to show that
I knew he was a Communist are complete nonsense. The chief one
is a story that in my presence Dr. Woodbridge Bingham had asked
him if he had ever been a Communist and he said "No." He then tried
to suggest that I flashed him a smile implying that I knew that what he
really meant was that he was a Communist. The truth is that I have
not the faintest recollection of this whole conversation, but if I smiled
at all, it was certainly a non-Communist smile. Now I would be will-
ing to believe that Communists have an arsenal of secret signals, but
I would never suppose that it included anything as good-natured as
a smile. In fact, I though that these grim conspirators regarded a
smile as a bourgeois gesture — practically as an enemy of the state.
If I am wrong, and if a smile is a secret Red signal, I confess that I
used to smile a good deal. In the pre-McCarthy days I used to think
that life was lots of fun.
3104 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Senator Smith. May I ask you a question there ? Were you present
"when Wittf ogel testified in this room ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Smith. Did you have any representative present ?
Mr. Lattimore. Let me ask my wife whether she was there.
She was there.
Senator Smith. You knew when he was going to testify, did you
not?
Mr. Lattimore. I think it was announced in the paper.
Wittf ogel also made the ridiculous assertion that the fact that I
used the terms "feudal' 'and "feudal survival" in describing Asiatic
societies showed that I was a Communist. His claim that these terms
are nothing but litmus papers for telling Communists from non-
Communists is ridiculous. It sounds like an echo from the religious
disputes and persecutions of the Middle Ages, when professing Chris-
tians put each other to death in quarrels over the difference between
"transsubstantiation" and "consubstantiation."
On this rather absurd subject Wittf ogel specifically charges that in
a book published last year, Pivot of Asia, I dropped my academic
disguise and let the heretical truth leak out: I referred to "semi-
feudal" relations in the Chinese Central Asian province of Sinkiang.
It is quite true that I used the phrase, and it was an accuate descrip-
tion. I am sorry that I did not know that the Communists had a
patent on the term, and that to use it was as dangerous as it is to smile»
If the use of terms like "feudal survival' 'is a test of communism
the following quotation may be of interest. It is from the American
Anthropologist, July-September 1951, page 403, and is from a review
of a book about Japan :
But here (in Japan) as in Germany, industrialization was so late and so rapid
that many feudal elements survived.
The author who thus uses the hideous and forbidden expression
"feudal elements" is Esther S. Goldfrank (Mrs. Karl-August Witt-
fogel). I hasten to say I know nothing of her political views, and in
any event I wouldn't accuse Wittfogel of anything on account of his
association with his wife.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Then, Mr. Lattimore, would you tell the committee,
please, why you dragged Mrs. Wittfogel in ?
Mr. Lattimore. Because I think it is a pertinent illustration of the
absurd nonsense of Wittfogel's talk about semi-feudalism and feudal
survival, and so on.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Have you read the review by Mrs. Wittfogel whick
you quote here ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have not read the full review, no.
Mr. SouRWiNE., You quote one sentence out of context, is that
correct ?
Mr. Lattimore. I quote one sentence which here I think is a com-
plete statement of the problem, and therefore can be considered in
context.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you know, and if so will you assert, whether
Mrs. Wittfogel is making that statement as her own or as a summariza-
tion of what was said in the book that she reviewed ?
Mr. LATriMORE. I couldn't answer that.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You do not know, do you ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3105
Mr. Lattimore. Have you any data on that?
Mr. SouKWiNE. The question is. Do you know ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I don't.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Now, not knowing, you have yet presented the letter
for this committee as though it were her own opinion, is that not
correct ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have presented it as a quotation from a review by
Mrs. Wittfogel.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You think that is an adequate answer to the ques-
tion, sir?
Mr. Lattimore. I do.
Mr. Sourwine. And you have so presented it without having seen
the whole review ?
Mr. Lattimore. I have.
Mr. Sourwine. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Lattimore. There is one clear, unequivocal aspect of Wittf ogel's
testimony that demonstrates that he was lying either about me or about
his own severance of Communist affiliation. Wittfogel stated defi-
nitely twice that he finally broke all Communist connections in the
summer of 1939. I have in my possession many long letters which
show clearly that he remained on friendly terms with me for 8 years
thereafter — that is, until 1947. If he told the truth about his separa-
tion from communism in 1939 he must have continued to think of me
as non-Communist, at least until 1947, when we had our last exchange
of correspondence.
Many very friendly letters which he wrote to me in 1940 and 1941
contain such phrases as "the warmest greetings to all of you," "I am so
happy to see you soon here," "yours in friendship," "your new book —
looks fine and it reads fine," "Love to all of you, when do we meet ? " —
none of which sound as if I were a Communist he had finally broken
with in 1939.
In an undated letter in 1941, Wittfogel wrote to me as follows:
During this weelf end I have reread your Inner Asian Frontiers and McGovern.
The reading of the two boolis made it clear again to me how absolutely superior
your analysis and presentation is not only to his — he is a dwarf — but to prac-
tically everybody who has ventured into an analysis of Wirtschaft and Gesell-
Bchaft of the oasis. Tour analysis really seem definite and classic. I shall
follow it for whatever I may be able to write about the Asiatic Oases. I hope
to be not too stupid a disciple.
During the war, from 1941 through 1944, 1 had very little time for
correspondence with anyone, but, in a letter to me dated March 4, 1945,
praising my book Solution in Asia, he wrote — and this is the same
book I will call to your attention that Senator Ferguson has suggested
has some sort of Communist coloration — he wrote :
I have delayed writing my weekly Sunday letters for hours because I could,
not tear myself away from your Asiatic Solution. By watching my action, not
my words, you can judge how great the power of attraction of your new book is.
You are really an expert to end all experts. I have not read anything for a long
time, that made me think so much about the various aspects of the postwar
world. This is a fascinating story, one, which, I hope, will be read much and
intensely, because you certainly show that the political leaders have to act
quickly, wisely, and boldly, or else — But I am sure, you are right, as solid a
peace has to be made as possible in this most artfully balanced of all worlds.
The breath-taking picture of a world dancing ballet on a swinging tight rope
emerged clearly from your masterly pen.
3106 mSTITUTB OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
This is the letter that Wittfogel tried to bypass in his testimony,
saying that he had barely looked at the book and wrote me a nice not©
just to be polite. I submit all of these letters in full for your record.
Senator Smith. We will receive those, subject to the Chairman's
permission.
(For the letters referred to see exhibits 597 A, B, C, D, pp. 3611
through 3614.)
Mr. Lattimore. From this time until 1947 Wittfogel remained
friendly, and even when we had some differences of opinion he did
not suggest that he thought me pro-Communist in any way.
During 1947 we had a disagreement over his invitation to me, at the
end of 1946, to write an introduction to his History of Chinese Society :
LIAO. I asked him to be allowed to read the book before writing
the introduction, and I am afraid that I indicated that I would not
write an introduction without being given a chance to form my own
opinion about the work I was supposed to sponsor in this way. This
entirely reasonable request didn't seem to suit Wittfogel and after
several letters I heard no more from him.
My guess about the matter is that Wittfogel staged this little ma-
neuver because, with the mounting China Lobby attacks on the IPE.
for harboing Communists, with constant reiteration of the familiar
Kohlberg attacks on me, he was becoming alarmed about his own con-
cealed Communist connections, and decided that he had better join
the pack rather than run the risk of being destroyed by it. Senator
McCarran's indication, at the opening of these hearings, that if ex-
Communists informed on other people all would be forgiven, pro-
vided this tortured man Wittfogel with a perfect avenue to the new
social security.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a few questions ?
Senator Smith. Yes.
Mr. SoTJRwiNE. One question I would like to ask is this: Do you
believe that Communists or former Communists are performing a
service for the United States when they come forward and testify?
Mr. Latiimore. Mr. Sourwine, I believe that the kind of informa-
tion about the inside workings of the Communist Party that can be
obtained by ex-Communists, by FBI agents passing as Communists
in the Communist Party, and so on, is absolutely essential to our secu-
rity. I believe that there are probably ex-Communists who are of
great value.
But I believe that it is a great temptation to the ex-Communist to
market his wares at more than their true value, and to go on purport-
ing to give testimony when he has exhausted his real testimony.
Therefore, I believe that it is extremely necessary, especially in
pubic hearings, where people, not only people's reputation but their
livelihood is affected, that there should be the severest testing of the
credibility of any ex-Communist used, and the validity of his
testimony.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, I think in justice to you one matter
should be shown. You are bilingual ; are you not ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, bilingual usually means equally versed in two
languages.
]\fr. SouRAviNE. Then let me say are you multilingual, do you have
several languages at your command?
Mr. Lattimore. I have several of them that I speak, none of them
as well as I sjjeak English, of course.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3107
Mr. SouRWiMK. What are they, sir?
Mr. Lattimore. I speak Chinese very well. I speak Mongol pretty
well. I speak French enough to get along. I speak German enough to
stammer along, and to understand other people's conversation, and I
have a reading knowledge of Russian, a considerable remnant of a
reading knowledge of Latin, and a few tattered remnants of a reading
knowledge of Greek. I could also at one time read Swedish, but I am
out of practice now.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you have access to a Soviet encyclopedia or a
"Who's Who"?
Mr. Lattimore. There is a copy of the Great Soviet Encyclopedia
in the library at Johns Hopkins.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you check it or have it checked to find out
whether General Berzin was mentioned therein ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I didn't.
Mr. SouR\viNE. Mr. Chairman, I hold in my hand a paper. I would
like to ask Mr. Mandel what it is.
Mr. IVL^NDEL. This is a translation submitted by the Library of
Congress in reference to Ian Antonovich Berzin, and it is a transla-
tion from volume 5, pages 626-627 of the Soviet Encyclopedia, 1927.
Mr. SouRWiNE. I offer this for the record.
Senator Smith. You may read it.
Mr. Sour WINE. Very well.
Senator Smith. This is in English?
Mr. SouRWiNE. Yes, sir.
Senator Smith. Eead it, then.
Mr. SouRWixE. The names I may mispronounce as they are Russian
names. It reads as follows:
ElsHiBiT 474
Translation
[Translation from vol. V, col. 626-627 of the Bol'shaia Sovetskaia Entsiklopediia, Moscow,
19271
Berzin, Ian Antonovich ("Pavel Vasil'evitcli," "Zemelis," "Vinter") born in
18S1, Communist party-worker. He hails from a peasant family in the Livonian
Province. As a village teacher he conducted revolutionary activities among the
peasants. He joined the Social Democratic Party of Latvia in 1902. In 1904
he was arrested and banished to the Olonets Province from which he escaped in
1905. During the 1905 revolution Berzin was active as a propagandist and
agitator in the Baltic region. He was arrested by a punitive detachment of Gen-
eral Orlov in December 1905. Upon his release from prison in 1907 Berzin worked
in Petersburg as secretary of the Committee of the Russian Social Democratic
Workers' Party. At the same time he was elected as a delegate to the London
Congress. He emigrated in 1908, lived in Switzerland, France, Belgium, England,
and in the United States, working in various party organizations, became editor
and collaborator of the Latvian organs of Bolshevik orientation (such as the
central organ of the Social Democrats of Latvia "Tsinia" and others). In 1915
he took part in the Zimmerwald Conference and in the founding of the "Zimmer-
wald Left." In 1916 and 1917 he was editor of the Latvian Social Democratic
newspaper "Stradneks" in Boston and of the Russian left wing— internationalist
newspaper "Novyi Mir" (The New World) in New York. In 1917 he was elected
at the Sixth Congress as a member of the Central Committee of the Russian
Social Democratic Workers' Party (of Bolsheviks) and of the Central Com-
mittee of the Social Democrats of Latvia. At the Second Congress of the Soviets
he was elected member of the All-Union Central Executive Committee. In 1918
he was appointed Plenipotentiary Representative to Switzerland, and in 1919
People's Commissar of Instruction for Latvia. From 1919 to 1920 he was secre-
tary of the Comintern. In 1920 he headed the delegation for peace negotiations
3108 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
with Finland and afterwards he became Plenipotentiary Representative to Fin-
land. From 1921 to 1925 he was attached to the Embassy in England. Since
August 1925 he has been the Plenipotentiary Representative of the U. S. S, R.
in Austria. Berzin's literai-y works, chiefly in the Latvian language, encompass
a great variety of fields ranging from politics to problems of cultural and art
criticism.
Mr. Lattimore. Does it mention he is a pal of Barmine's ?
Mr. SouRWiNE. This is from the Soviet dictionary of 1927, sir, as
previously stated. It is offered in the record, Mr. Chairman, for the
purpose of showing that there was such a person as Berzin.
Senator Smith. All right ; go ahead.
(The material referred to was marked exhibit 474 and was read in
full by counsel.)
Mr. Lattimore. I have now disposed of the charges against me per-
sonally. But I am also concerned with something of far greater im-
portance— the fate of the far-eastern policy of our country.
The threat of sabotage to our far-eastern policy transcends the inter-
est of the individual citizen. For more than a quarter of a century
I have been openly printing, publishing, and stating in public lec-
tures exactly what I think about a wide range of problems. My field
has been the Far East in general, more specifically China, and still more
specifically the border lands between China and Russia. The record
shows that I have never consistently agreed with any ideology, school
of thought, group, trend, or individual. I have at times changed my
own opinions, but only on the basis of changed conditions, more ma-
ture consideration, or additional data ; never because of being hypno-
tized, intimidated, or bought.
I do not find it surprising, or anything to be ashamed of, that I
have at times made mistakes. But, whatever the mistakes I have made,
I have never tried to deliver the policy of my country into the hands
of a foreign power, as the Communists have tried to deliver it to
the Soviet Union, and the China lobby is trying to deliver it into the
hands of Chiang Kai-shek.
On the record of the situation in China and changes in American
policy toward China, the issue. Senators, is not one of domestic poli-
tics, or McCarthy's reelection, or of who will benefit, politically or
otherwise, from denunciation of me, Mr. Vincent, or others. The great
issue is what about China ? Are we on the right track ? Or has United
States policy been affected by disloyal or subversive persons?
When discussing China, it is of crucial importance to put events into
their proper perspective in history. I ask you, Senators, if you are
interested in facts, kindly to allow them to be presented in the context
of their time. If you do not, the result will not be clarification but a
continuation of the distortion and confusion that have characterized
your inquiry to date.
There have been malicious and pointless attempts to prove that I
and other misrepresented the Chinese Communists as "different" from,
the Russians, or as mere "agrarian radicals." It was proved before
the Tydings committee that I never did. Neither, I believe, did the
career far-eastern experts of the State Department. But I offer you,
for the record, an exhibit showing that Gen. Pat Hurley ; Freda Utley,
of the China Lobby; and Hallett Abend, of the New York Times, did
say that the Chinese Communists were not real Communists. Now,
here again, it would be utter nonsense to suggest that this is a sign of
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3109
communism or procommunism. The judgment that Patrick Hurley,
for example, expressed about the Chinese Communists was a perfectly
possible conclusion for a man to arrive at honestly at that time. He
may have been wrong — but he was not attempting to distort the facts
or subvert his country.
May I hand in here these quotations that I have just referred to,
Senator?
Senator Smith. They will be received, subject to the decision of the
chairman for insertion in the record.
(For the material referred to, see exhibit 476 in appendix I of pt.
10, p. 3705.)
Mr, Lattimore. One of the principal targets of the China Lobby's
criticism in the controversy about the history of our Chinese policy
has been the proposal for a coalition between the Nationalists and the
Communists — or more properly for a working arrangement between
the two, in order to avoid a civil war in which, as informed observers
knew and as events proved, the Chiang government would be bound
to lose. Even General Marshall's motives have been assailed by the
China Lobby because he advocated this, in spite of the fact that it is
a matter of record that this policy was first sponsored by Secretary of
State Byrnes, who has never been attacked for it and should not be.
It is nonsense to say, as had been dogmatically asserted before this
committee, that coalition or cooperation with Communists always
ends with the Communists taking over.
The Free French cooperated with the Communists, and the Commu-
nists did not take over France. Today about a third of the French
Deputies are Communists.
The postwar Government of Burma began as a coalition with Com-
munists, but the Communists were later expelled and armed action
taken against them.
The Indonesian Nationalist movement began as a united front with
Communists, but the Indonesian Government has since taken armed
action to suppress them.
The British cooperated during the war with Indian Commimifits,
but the Communists did not take over India.
In saying this I do not want to be misunderstood as advocating
collaboration with Communists. This is always dangerous — as dan-
gerous as a partnership with a bear. It should be tolerated only
where there is no alternative. My point is only that coalition is not
necessarily surrender, and that coalition may reasonably be advo-
cated in particular circumstances by persons whose sole objective is
the ultimate defeat of communism.
In China too the idea of coalition and compromise was not a foolish
idea dreamed up in Washington. There was a solid basis for the
view that a coalition was the only alternative to the certain triumph
of communism. And there was a solid basis for the hope that it might
give the non-Communist groups time to reorganize, and eventually to
oust the Communists.
If I may make an interpolation here, Mr. Chairman, I would like
to change "eventually to oust the Communists" so as to read "and
eventually to dominate the situation."
The reason I suggest the change is that at that time, that is, right
at the end of the war, the precedence of the ousting of the Commu-
3110 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
nists for the French and Italian Governments had not yet been estab-
lished, and it might seem as if I were claiming a little too much prec-
edence by talking in the thing in the context of 1945.
Senator Jenner. May I ask a question ?
You say that the Chiang government was bound to lose if the
civil war was started. Did the Nationalists have more troops than
the Communists, or fewer?
Mr. Lattimore. I am not quite sure of what you said.
Senator Jexner. Did the Nationalists have more troops?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; but before that you said
Senator Jenner. You said the Chiang government was bound to
lose if the civil war was started.
Mr. Lattimore. If the civil war was started. No.
Senator Jenner. Well, at this particular time in history, did the
Nationalists have more troops than the Communists, or fewer troops?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe they had a good many more.
Senator Jenner. Were the Communist troops trained for other than
guerrilla war?
Mr. Lattimore. That I am not sure of to answer that question.
Senator Jenner. Was Under Secretary Acheson correct on June 19,
1946, when he testified before the House Foreign Affairs Committee
that Chiang had four times as many troops as the Communists?
Mr. Lattimore. Presumably he was right. I don't have the figures
to check it.
Senator Jenner. Was he correct when he said that the Commu-
nists needed American minimum training, and I quote from him,
and niinimum quantities of equipment, needed American military
training and minimum quantities of equpment?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know about that. Senator.
Senator Smith. Are you sure you mean the Communists and not
the Nationalists?
Senator Jenner. He said that. That is the record of June 1946.
What I want to bring out is how could the Communists have won
without Russia's help if the Nationalists had four times the number
of troops that the Communists did? How could they have possibly
won without the Communist help ?
Mr. Lattimore. A recent British authority on the subject said that
they had two invaluable allies, the Chinese Communists, that one was
•Chiang Kai-shek and the other was the Republican Party of the
United States.
Senator Jenner. Thank you very much.
^Ir. Lattimore. I can give you the exact reference. The book is
called Asia and the West.
Senator Smith. Who wrote that?
Mr. Lattimore. It is by a man named Maurice Zinkin, a former
member of the Indian Civil Service, who now represents a large cor-
poration in India.
Senator Jenner. Then it was the Republican Party that withheld
the aid to Chiang's Nationalist Government; is that right?
Mr. Lattimore. I think the author. I have quoted was making a
satirical reference to the fact that, as the civil war drew to a closei
with the Nationalists being steadily defeated, the fact that the Na-
tionalists were receiving American arms resulted in transferring to
the Communists in China the idea of nationalism so that the nation-
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3111
alist idea was captured away from the Nationalists by the Ck)mmu-
nists.
Senator Jenner. And then it was the Republican Party that sent
General Marshall to China with his mission ?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, we have to talk here in terms of context.
Senator Jenner. You gave me an answer ; you said two things, the
invaluable aid of Chiang and the Republican Party. I want to find
out if the Republican Party sent General Marshall over to force Chiang
Kai-shek to form a united government to take the Communists into
his Republic and into his army.
Senator Smith. If it is available, he should be able to give it.
Senator Jenner. It is available. He made the answer of the two
invaluable things.
Mr. Lattimore. The Republican Party did not send General Mar-
■ shall to China. He was sent by the administration.
But if I may amend the way you put the question, Senator, I
would suggest that General Marshall was not sent to force Chiang
Kai-shek to accept the Communists.
Senator Jenner. What was the result of General Marshall's mis-
sion?
Mr. Lattimore. The result of General Marshall's mission was that
he failed to negotiate a compromise in China.
Senator Jenner. After being there how long?
Mr. Lattimore. Let me see, about 1 year, I think.
Senator Jenner. He talked a little bit longer than they are talking
in Korea. They are talking 8 months in Korea, and he talked a little
longer than that, is that right ?
Mr. Lattimore. I accept your statement.
Senator Jenner. What was the report that he brought back to this
country ?
Mr. Lattimore. The report that he brought back was that his at-
tempts at negotiation had been defeated primarily by the intransi-
gents on both sides.
Senator Jenner. During this period of time, the Republican Party,
had they failed to vote appropriations to help Chiang Kai-shek?
Mr, Lattimore. I couldn't answer you on the record.
Senator Jenner. Was the money that was appropriated by us used,
was the intent of Congress used to help Chiang Kai-shek in his fight
against the Communists? Was it used?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe that General Chiang was not short of
munitions.
Senator Jenner. And at the time General Marshall arrived in
China, the Nationalists had four times the number of troops as the
Communists had?
Mr. Lattimore. And were already being warned by General Wede-
meyer not to overextend themselves.
Senator Jenner. And yet your answer to these facts is that the
Republican Party and General Chiang Kai-shek caused the downfall
of the Nationalist Government in China ?
Mr. Lattimore. I quoted a satirical comment by the British author.
Senator Smith. May I ask a question there, Mr. Lattimore ?
Were you in China while General Marshall was there?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir ; I wasn't. Wait a minute, now. I want to
be absolutely accurate on this.
3112 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
In the week of Christmas, 1945, to New Year's 1946 I was briefly in
Shanghai and Peiping on a visit connected with the work of the rep-
arations mission in Japan.
I am not sure whether General Marshall was in China at the mo-
ment or out of China for a visit. But I didn't see him.
Senator Smith. Wliat I was pointing to was, was the trip that you
made with Mr. Henry Wallace and some other persons, through Rus-
sia, I believe, and Mongolia, did you go down to China on that trip?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
Senator Smith. Wliat year was that?
Mr, Lattimore. 1944.
Senator Smith. And how long were you gone on that trip?
Mr, Lattimore. Approximately 2 months, I think.
Senator Smith. Up to that time had the Chinese Nationalists, about
that time, been holding their own, so to speak, if we may know, in
their fight with the Communists ?
Mr. Lattimore. Up to that moment there was officially no fighting
between the Nationalists and the Communists.
Senator Smith. What I meant was had the Nationalists up to that
time held their ground? They hadn't been run over like they were
later?
Mr. Lattimore. They lost a lot of ground to the Japanese. I don't
think they lost any ground to the Communists.
Senator Smith. That is what I mean. Some time after that trip
they did begin losing a lot of ground to the Communists, did they
not?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe that they lost it to the Japanese, not to
the Communists as long as the war lasted.
Senator Smith. When did they begin losing ground to the Com-
munists?
Mr. Lattimore. I think after the civil war began.
Senator Smith. Do you remember what time, what year?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that is rather hard to date because there
was a certain amount of scrappy fighting between the Nationalist
troops and the Communist troops which General Marshall tried to
halt with his famous truce teams, and so on; but the real fighting
began in 1946.
Senator Smith. That is all, unless you want to say something else
about the Republican Party.
Senator Jenner. I am glad to find out who sold them out.
Mr. FoRTAS. Senator, is this a good time to break today ?
Senator Smith. No; we will go on until we finish this. We only
have seven more pages. We want to finish.
Have you any questions now ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. No, sir ; not now.
Senator Smith. All right, you may go ahead.
Mr. Lattimore. I will proceed.
There had in fact, been a coalition in China from 1937 to about
1944. It had worked. It had not been dominated or captured by
the Communists, and it had saved China from Japan. The Byrnes-
Marsliall policy was not a new experiment. It was an attempt to
restore and prolonged the previous combination that had been dom-
inated by Chiang Kai-shek.
Look at the historical record.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3113
Before Pearl Harbor, the overwhelming issue in China was the
issue of Japanese aggression. In 1937, the Chinese formed what they
called a united front, including the Communists and Chiang's Na-
tionalists, against further Japanese encroaclmient. It is of cardinal
significance — and it conditions every subsequent event — that this
united front enabled China to continue the fight against Japan — ^^with
which we were also at war after December 1941 ; and that it was so
clearly controlled by Chiang Kai-shek and his party that foreign aid,
both ours and Eussia's, was received directly only by Chiang Kai-
shek, not by the Communists.
By 1944, or perhaps as early as 1943, while we were still in bitter
war with Japan, this coalition had fallen apart so much that Ameri-
can representatives, diplomatic, military, and economic were seriously
worried. We were making every effort to strengthen Chiang Kai-
shek, militarily and economically, but our help was being wasted
through inefficiency and corruption. Some experienced observers were
already beginning to believe that Chiang Kai-shek's part of free
China was in danger of being completely conquered by the Japanese.
Some of these observers, including American military officers, even
felt that the American Govermnent ought to assert its right to send
supplies to the Communist areas of resistance. Their argument was
that we must be prepared to keep up resistance to the Japanese some-
where in China, even if it was Communist "resistance, just as we were
doing everything we could to keep Communist Russia in the war
against Germany.
If I had seen at that time some of the reports that were published
later in the white paper, I might have taken a position in this con-
troversy ; but I did not see them and so simply maintained my previous
position in general support of Chinese resistance, and later supported
the policy that General Marshall was trying to carry out.
But I believe that this j)eriod has been well summed up by Mr.
Joseph Alsop. In a column on July 25, 1951, he pointed out that the
argimient for direct American dealings with the Communist-led forces
had been ably presented by Mr. Jolm Davies, of the State Department,
who was prophesying in 1943-44 that at the end of the war the Com-
munists were going to come out on top ; but that if America gave them
moderate aid it would promote their confidence in America, and thus
achieve a division between them and the Kremlin. Mr. Alsop had
opposed Mr. Davies' position at the time, but in his column he con-
cludes:
Davies made what must now be accounted an extremely brilliant deduction —
that Titoism was possible, before Titoism had been heard of — and if Davies'
recommendations had been followed, I now believe he would have been proven
right.
Also, there is an important fact that has not been brought out before
this committee. General Marshall's proposals were not an attempt
to force Chiang, alone and without allies, into cooperation with the
Communists. Much hope was placed in the minority parties com-
posing the Democratic League, when General Marshall called —
a splendid group of men, but who as yet lack the political power to exercise a
controlling influence. Successful action on their part under the leadership of
Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek would, I believe, lead to unity through good
government (White Paper, p. 688).
3114 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
If Chiang had known how to strengthen those allies and undertake
with them a progiam of reforms it would have been possible to take
the steam out of the Communist drive to political power. Chiang's-
failure to restrain the hostility and brutality of his rightwing sup-
porters toward this group did much to destroy the support that moder-
ate and liberal Chinese had been given him.
In that situation some of our best qualified observers had already
predicted that if the Communist problem were put to the test of force-
in a civil war, the attempt would end in disaster. We all know that
the attempt was made, that it did end in disaster, and that General
Marshall, put the blame for the failure of his negotiations on the in-
transigeants of both Chiang Kai-shek's side and the Communist side.
We also know that it is the opinion of the American military experts
who had most to do with Chiang's armies that Chiang overreached
himself by invading Manchuria too deeply, against the advice of
General Wedemeyer, and that, in the words of our own General Barr :
No battle has been lost since my arrival due to lack of ammunition or equip-
ment. Their military debacles, in my opinion can all be attributed to the
world's worse leadership and many other morale-destroying factors that led to
a complete loss of the will to fight (hearings before Committee on Armed Serv-
ices and Committee on Foreign Relations, U. S. Senate, June 1951, p. 1S56).
That, Senators, is the outline of what happened. Every possible
effort has been made, by Chiang's representatives and by the China
lobby to confuse the story, but the record speaks for itself. Let me
repeat: there had been a united front, or loosely spcakhig, a coalition
of Chiang's party and the Comnnmists from 1937 to 1944. It had
worked in the sense that Chiang had been able to dominate it, and
that China had been able to defend itself against Japan, and thereby
to help itself and us. Coalition proposals by General Marshall and
others were made in the light of this history and of the clear, ines-
capable facts known to all of us who are not blinded by interest or
idolatory, that Chiang's party was falling apart — and if put to the
test would fall and the Communists would prevail.
And now what? How are we to handle the continuing conse-
quences of the vast shift in the world balance of power represented
by Cliina under the control of a Communist government friendly to
Moscow ?
Some, including Chiang's refugee government and the China lobby,
want to involve us in a war with Russia on the mainland of China,
the sooner the better. I agree with General Bradley that this would
be "wrong war, wrong time, wrong place."
Some want us to follow a policy of blockade, raids, and landings,
aid to anti-Communist guerrillas, and the activities of what Congress-
man Walter Judd calls a United States "department of dirty tricks."
I agree with the general consensus of the China experts in Great
Britain that this would result merely in welding tighter the alliance
between Peking Reds and Kremlin Reds, and an increase in the rate
of Russian aid and in completing the conversion of China into a
police state on the model of the Russian police state.
Some believe that we should write off China as a total loss. Again,
I do not agree.
As the basis for a policy that might work, I suggest the follow-
ing principles
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3115
Mr. SouRwiNE. So that the record might be clear, Mr. Chairman,
I would like to ask the witness another question.
From here on to the end of the statement, you are giving your rec-
ommendations with regard to foreign policy that the United States
should follow ; is that right ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is quite right.
Senator Smith. I do not think that has any place in this invBS-
tigation.
Senator Jenner. It could be submitted for the record.
Senator Smith. Yes. We will stop right there. The statement
will be in the record.
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, may I correct myself? I have been
reading along and lost track of things.
Mr. Sourwine asked me if, from there to the end, it was my recom-
mendation of foreign policy. There are seven points of foreign
policy here, but the remainder, from the bottom of page 48 to 50
contains matter which I think is not direct recommendations of a
foreign policy of this country.
Senator Smith. That is dealing with the future anyway. I say
that it can be put into the record.
Senator Ferguson. I would like to ask one question.
In relation to the letters and the memoranda to the President,
and your talk, did you distinguish between being an adviser to the
State Department and the President? Do you draw any distinc-
tion there ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I was simply a citizen who wanted to put
some ideas before the President.
Senator Ferguson, But when you were asked at times, as I under-
stand it — and I want you to correct me if I am not correct — you
claimed you were never an adviser to the State Department.
Mr. Lattimore. That is quite right.
Senator Ferguson. And did you distinguish then between that
and being an adviser to the President?
Mr. Lattimore, I would certainly distinguish. Senator, but I don't
think I was being an adviser to the President.
Senator Ferguson, When a man writes the letter and the two
memoranda, or the one with the two parts of it, and the different
letters, and saying how important it was that you see the President
before he made commitments, in effect, do you say that is not in there?
You are shaking your head,
Mr, FoRTAS. I do not think that Avas what the letter said.
Senator Ferguson. Let me have the letter.
Reading from the letter of June 20 :
Since I am most anxious that the views which I represent should be laid
before the President for his consideration before his forthcoming meeting with
Prime Minister Churchill and Marshal Stiilin, I hope very much that you will
find it possible to arrange an appointment for me as soon as possible after the
President returns from San Francisco.
And then you give him the places that you can be reached. Do you
still say that he did not want to act as an adviser to the President,
counsel ?
Mr. FoRTAS. No ; I say that is not the point.
Senator Ferguson. What is the point? Why were you shaking
your head when I was giving the question?
3116 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
I do not mind being criticized from the witness, I expect it from
the witness. But I do not expect that from the counsel.
Mr. FoRTAS. Senator, in the first place I was not criticizing you.
And in the second place, I believe, and the record will show — or at
least I understood and the record will show whether it was or not —
your reference was to the letter which Mr. Lattimore sent to the
President.
Senator Ferguson. The record will show that I was asking about
his desire to give advice.
Mr. FoRTAS. You can ask the question and I am sure he will answer
it. But I thought you were referring to the witness' letter to the
President.
Senator Ferguson. You saw I had a paper in my hand, and you
thought I was looking at it. It had nothing to do with the question.
Mr. Lattimore. This is a question of the choice of words and the
meaning of words to different people.
In my opinion, an adviser is a person who is retained or requested
to act as an adviser. I don't think that the hundreds, in fact thou-
sands, of people who ask to see the President of the United States in
the course of a year in order to make suggestions of various kinds can
accurately be classified as advisers.
Senator Ferguson. So you are now saying that the reason you did
not mention the President and these letters, and this memorandum,
was that you figured that you were offering your advice, and he was
not requesting it. Is that correct?
Mr. Lattimore. That is correct.
Senator Smith. Are you through?
Senator Ferguson. Had you ever approved the plan that General
Marshall was sent to China to put into effect ?
Mr. Lattimore. I approved the sending of General Marshall, and
I approved the statements
Senator Ferguson. I did not ask you that. I asked you if you
approved the plan.
Mr. Lattimore. I approved the statement that was issued at the
time that he went to China, which was all that the public knew of the
purposes of the mission. I approved of that.
Senator Ferguson. Wlien did you learn that he was sent on a mis-
sion to try and take the Communists into the government, as you advo-
cated in your memorandum ?
Mr. Lattimore. I learned that General Marsliall was going to China
when I saw it in the press. I did not advocate that General Marshall
be sent to China to take the Communists into the government.
Senator Ferguson. You did not advocate that General Marshall
be sent, but you advocated that that be our policy ?
Mr. Lattimore. I warned the President, as I recall. May I see tho
text of what I wrote?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I warned the President.
Senator Smith. Do you have any other copies of this? I imagine
there might be some curious people that would like to see them.
Senator Ferguson. I would say there would be.
Mr. Lattimore. We have only the copies that we are turning in.
Mr. SouRwiNE. The letters are in the record, including the memo-
randum, I think.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3117
Senator Smith. There was some question that they be admitted
subject to the propriety that the chairman woukl pass on them, having
in mind there might be some correspondence with the President with
which I might not be familiar.
Senator Ferguson. I thought they were in or else I would not have
examined on them.
Senator Smith. I do not think there is any secrecy about them.
But I did have some hesitancy myself in ruling on correspondence that
might have passed between Professor Lattimore and the President of
the United States, and I prefer to leave that for the chairman of the
committee to pass on.
Mr. FoRTAS. My I suggest, it is 5 : 15, and this witness has been on
the stand all day. Perhaps you can clear that up tomorrow morn-
ing.
Senator Smith. That can be done. But there is one thing, and I
want to make it clear. Mr. Lattimore stopped reading or finished
reading, I believe, at the top of page 47. Then there are a few pages,
47, 48, 49, and half of page 50, and I asked whether or not anybody
wishes to have them read.
I want to ask whether Dr. Lattimore wants to go ahead and read it
now, so that his whole story will be before us.
Senator Ferguson. I do not want to object to him reading it.
Senator Smith. I am asking Dr. Lattimore whether or not it is his
wish that he proceed to read the pages. You see, they are dealing
with some advice as to policy, not as to the past. What is your pref-
erence ?
Mr. Lattimore. I prefer to read it, if I might.
As a basis for a policy that might work, I suggest the following
Senator Ferguson. Is this a suggestion to the committee or are
these your views ?
Mr. Lattimore. This is my statement of opinion about foreign
policy.
Senator Ferguson. But not advice to the committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is not advice to the committee. It is words
to be considered by anyone who is interested.
As the basis' for a policy that might work, I suggest the following
principles :
1. Since the North Korean Communist aggression, we have made
clear some of the broad outlines of our policy in Asia as a whole. We
have shown that we will nowhere tolerate the territorial expansion
of communism by armed aggression, that we have the power to protect
free peoples against this kind of aggression, and that if it is tried
again, elsewhere, we shall resist again. We must hold fast to this
policy, and we must build and maintain the strength to carry it out.
If we do I believe we can count on countinuing United Nations
backing.
2. On the basis of these principles, we must consider the problem of
China as a part of the whole complex of the problems of Asia. We can-
not handle it successfully in isolation. We must be ready and quick
to resist aggression anywhere in Asia ; and at the same time, we must
be even ahead of the Asians in insisting that freedom for them means
freedom from all foreign domination — our own, Britain's and France's
as well as that of the Soviet Union.
88348— 52— pt. 9 15
3118 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
3. Our stand in Korea made it possible to begin negotiating from
a position of strength. But in negotiating from positions of strength,
it is necessary to show also that while we are determined to stop Com-
munist aggression, we are eager to promote alternatives that are ac-
ceptable to the maximum number of people in Asia — and Europe.
We must show that we are not blindly committed to preventing
changes in the status quo — that we accept the principles of national
self-determination, national independence, and the right of any people
to determine its own form of government and its own economic sys-
tem.
4. Those aspects of our policy that are symbolized by the words
"point 4" and "Marshall plan" must be made as positive, as active,
and as important as the aspects that are symbolized by the words "con-
tainment'' and "positions of strength." We must show our willingness
to help in the progress of economic development, as well as political
freedom, in all the countries that are willing to accept our policies
of equality, mutual help, and mutual defense.
5'. I do not prophesy — I do not think any man could honestly
prophesy — what the eventual answer will be. But I do believe that
China is different from Russia, has national interests different from
those of Russia, and will follow those interests rather than Russian
doctrine and dogma.
Mr. SouRWiNE. May I ask one question at that point, Mr. Chair-
man ?
Mr. Lattimore, do you presently believe that the Chinese Commu-
nists are following the line of Moscow ?
Mr. Lati^imore. Yes, I do.
Senator Ferguson. Do you see any signs that they are about to give
it up ?
Mr. Lattimore. I haven't had the time to follow the situation very
closeh^, but I don't see any signs.
I do not pretend to know how far the China of the future may
differ from the Russia of the present, or in what way. But I do be-
lieve that there is no Russian combination of strategic, political, and
economic forces that can permanently mold the people of China
against their will.
Senator Ferguson. Do you not understand that communism will
not be directly, as far as the Chinese are concerned, indicated that it is
coming from Moscow, but it is the trained man from Moscow, and
under the domination of Moscow, that will make it appear to the
Chinese that the thing is Chinese rather than Russian?
Mr. Latiimore. On the contrarj^. Senator. My understanding is
that the present Chinese Communist propaganda emphasizes the Rus-
sian connection. I may be wrong on that. It may have switched
again, but that was the last I heard of it.
Senator Ferguson. But the actual Russian does not come down ex-
ceytt as an overseer, does he ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am sorry, I am not informed on the details of
that. Senator.
Senator Ferguson. You are giving an opinion. I would think
before you would give an opinion that you would know something
about the details.
Mr. Latttmore. Senator, I am trying to give long-range opinions.
Senator Ferguson. This is long-range advice ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3119
Mr. Lattimore. This is long range.
Senator Ferguson. Fifty or one hundred years ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir.
Senator Ferguson. How long? What do you call a long-range
opinion ?
Mr. Lattimore. It is not intended to be a report on the details of
last week's situation in China.
Senator Ferguson. How long a range?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't know, Senator. I should think it would
depend partly on the outcome of the Korean negotiations.
Senator Ferguson. Do you think that this advice will help this
committee in deciding whether or not there was penetration in the
IPR by Communists, and whether or not the IPR had an influence on
the State Department?
Mr. Lattimore. I think it might help the committee to decide
whether they think that I am a Communist or not.
Senator Smith. You mean what you say as to the future?
Mr. Lattimore. Wliat I say as to the future. If you think I am
talking like a Communist, that is your judgment.
Senator Ferguson. No, I think we ought to take it for the last
reason.
IMr. Lattimore. 6. It is of critical importance that, as the inde-
pendent forces and separate characteristics of China begin to make
themselves felt, both China and the rest of Asia should be made to
realize that their true future lies in independence — independence of
America, as of Russia, but a real independence supported by America,
and not a phony independence subordinate to Russia.
7. Independence of this kind is possible. It is possible without a
world war. And it can lead eventually to a stabilization of relations
with Russia as well as with Asia. It is the declared policy of our
Government that our purpose in attaining positions of strength is to
be able to negotiate such a stabilization. I support that concept of
policy.
But to carry out such a policy successfully, we must convince Asia,
and the world, and above all ourselves, that we are not abandoning
democracy. In defending ourselves against totalitarian aggression
abroad and infiltration within, we must not, despairing of our heri-
tage of freedom, try to take refuge in the brutal kind of police state
that we fought against when we destroyed Hitler and defeated Japan.
The responsibility, gentlemen, for deciding how the problems of
China and Asia shall be handled rests squarely on this country, be-
cause of our preponderating influence on the policies of such countries
as Britain, France, and Japan. I know that there are people who
believe that we should forthwith go to war with the Soviet Union and
thereby resolve the conflict over China and the world. Your chair-
man has said that such a war is inevitable. A logical case of sorts
can be made for this view, based on the record of the intransigeance
and faithlessness of the Soviet Union in the international community.
But this case disregards the basic values of the lives and the spiritual
and moral well-being of ordinary people. These values are at stake,
and they would be threatened even more by a great world war than
thev are by the present limited conflict.
War may come upon us. We may have no choice other than to en-
dure and inflict its horrors. But the moral values that we are defend-
3120 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
ing cannot be defended if we take upon ourselves the inhuman and
brutal responsibility of preventive war. The demands of civilization
and humanity are that we make every effort, unless and until we are
forced into war, to protect ourselves and the values of civilization by
means short of war.
The policy which I have described, as well as the policy to which
our Government and the United Nations are committed at the mo-
ment, is the policy of containment of aggression and of building up
the conditions and forces of freedom. It demands, over and above
strength and firmness, a deep understanding of the hearts and aspira-
tions of men. This policy is the hard way, the difficult course. It
requires patience, firmness ,and great skill. If we follow it, we shall
be walking, fully armed, through minefields and among pitfalls. A
violent move can bring disaster. Misinformation as to where we are
treading, and the sensitiveness of the ground on which we tread, can
cause a fatal miscalculation.
Senator Smith. Just a minute. Dr. Lattimore. It has come to the
attention of the Chair, from at least two sources, that at the end of
this session a demonstration has been planned in this room.
The Chair wants to state that there will be no demonstration. The
Chair has asked officers to come into this room, and the hall, and under
no circumstances will we tolerate any demonstration for or against
Dr. Lattimore. I hope that it will not be necessary for the officers to
arrest anyone, as I have instructed them to do if there is any demon-
stration whatsoever.
Go ahead. Dr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. Gentlemen, of this I am certain : So long as this
program of maneuver is our policy, so long as we choose the difficult
and great course of peace, we are completely dependent for success
on the validity of our information, the skill with which we analyze
the information, and the ability not only of our diplomats but of our
non-Government, academic, and private research students and analy-
sts. We cannot hope to play this dangerous game, and certainly not
to win it, unless we have the facts as to what is going on. Our observ-
ers must be allowed to report the facts as they see them, without the
fear that their motives will be misconstrued if they tell the truth. We
must know the facts favorable to our enemy as well as those that we
like. Of equal importance, we must have the views and opinions of
all who have any special competence. Their views must be freely
stated and stoutly maintained, so that those who have the ultimate
decisions to make may have the fullest choice of various alternatives
and so that the people may understand the issues at stake.
We cannot, of course, entrust our destiny in any way to those whose
first allegiance is to a foreign loyalty, whether that be the Soviet
Union, Communist China, Chiang's Formosa, or Franco's Spain. But
we must be ever alert to encourage, and not to destroy, freedom for
the vigorous expression of views, even of wrong views ; and freedom
for our private institutions, as well as our official personnel, to make
their contributions to the formation of policy and the determination
of our destiny. This is the essence of democracy, and it is democracy's
strength. It must not be destroyed.
Senator Smith. Dr. Lattimore, you have finished your prepared
statement, I believe ?
Mr. La'itimore. Yes, sir.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3121
Senator Smith. And you have been allowed to finish it with the
opportunity for such vigor as you wish to express, have you not?
Mr. Lattimore. And with occasional interrogations, Mr. Chairman,
as the chairman stated at the beginning.
Senator Smith. I must say, at the end of this reading by you of a
prepared statement, you have been allowed to finish this reading un-
molested and with the emphasis you have just demonstrated.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, sir.
Senator Smith. I just want to make that clear and have it in the
record.
Senator Ferguson. I wanted to ask if there is anything that he
wanted to say now about this document, or to add to it or subtract from
it?
Mr. Lattimore. Not at the moment. Senator, thank you.
Senator Smith. Then we will recess until tomorrow morning at 10
o'clock, when the examination of Dr. Lattimore will continue.
("Whereupon, at 5 : 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene
at 10 a. m., Friday, February 29, 1952.)
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
FBIDAY, FEBRUARY 29, 1952
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration
OF THE Internal Security Act and Other Internal
Security Laws, of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcommittee met at 10 : 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room
424 of the Senate Office Building, Senator Pat McCarran (chairman)
presiding.
Present : Senators McCarran, Eastland, O'Conor, Smith, Ferguson,
and Watkins.
Senators Young, McCarthy, and Mundt.
Also present : J. G. Sourwine, committee counsel ; and Eobert Mor-
ris, subcommittee counsel.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
We regret the congested condition of the room, but it is impossible
to do otherwise. We hope that we may have quiet.
You may proceed, Mr. Morris.
TESTIMONY OF OWEN LATTIMORE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
ABE FORTAS
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, I was asked yesterday at the close
of my statement if I had anything to add. I do have some supple-
mentary material that I should like to be allowed time to assemble
over the week end and present later.
The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Morris.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, have you ever worked in concert with
a person whom you knew to be a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I don't believe I have.
Mr. Morris. Have you ever knowingly assisted the Communist
Party of any country, or any person or persons known to you to be
a Communist or pro-Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. The Institute of Pacific Relations; of course, the
Russian members of the Russian Council could be assumed to be Com-
munist.
Mr. Morris. But apart from them ?
Mr. Lattimore. Apart from them, no; I don't believe so.
Mr. Morris. Have you ever taken instructions or abided by recom-
mendations made by members of the Communist Party of the Soviet
Union ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not to my knowledge ; no.
3123
3124 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Morris. The Communist Party or any other country ?
Mr. Lati'imore. No.
Mr. Morris. Have you ever received any orders or instructions or
suggestions, directly or indirectly, from any Communist or pro-Com-
munist source?
Mr, Lattimore. That I considered to be Communist or pro-Com-
munist at the time ?
Mr. Morris. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. What is the answer ?
Mr. Morris. I will read it again. [Reading :]
Have you ever received any orders or instructions or suggestions, directly or
indirectly, from any Communist or pro-Communist source?
Mr. Lattimore. Orders and instructions, no. Of course, when I
went up to Yenan, the Chinese Communist headquarters, in 1937,
and later in Chungking under the instructions of Generalissimo
Chiang Kai-shek, I did talk with Communists.
Mr. Morris. But otherwise your answer is "No" ?
Mr. Lattimore. Otherwise my answer is "No."
The Chairman. Read that question again, Mr. Morris.
Mr. Morris. Have you ever received any orders or instructions or
suggestions, directly or indirectly, from any Communist or pro-Com-
munist source?
The Chairman. Do you fully understand the question, Mr. Latti-
more?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I considered to be Communist or pro-
Communist at the time.
Mr. Sourwine. Except for Yenan and Chungking.
Mr. Lattimore. Except for Yenan and Chungking.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Chairman, I don't consider that he has
answered the question. When he puts the answer "considered" I
do not think he has answered the question at all.
The Chairman. Read the question again, Mr. Morris.
Mr. Morris (reading) :
Have you ever received any orders, instructions or suggestion, directly or in-
directly, from any Communist or pro-Communist source?
(Mr, Lattimore consulting counsel.)
Senator Ferguson. The question is did he know them to be Com-
munists or have information.
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I considered to be Communist at the time.
The Chairman. I do not think that that is the answer, and I do not
think it calls for time, Mr. Lattimore. I think you should consider the
question, if you please. I asked you if you understood it.
Mr. Lattimore. I think I understood it, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right. I will have it read again for you if you
think you do not understand it or if you have any doubt about the
understanding of it, because it is a vital Question.
Mr. Lattimore. I think I understood it, and I think my answer was
clear, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I do not think you have made an answer to the
question, Mr. Lattimore. In order that you may clarify your situa-
tion, I ask the counsel to read the question again.
Mr. Morris (reading) :
Have you ever received any orders or instructions or suggestions, directly or
Indirectly, from any Communist or pro-Communist source?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3125
Mr, Lattimore. Not that I considered to be Communist.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Except in the case of Chmigking and Yenan.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, and there it is only a question of having con-
versations with them, and I don't remember anything there that could
be considered a suggestion, much less an instruction.
The Chairman. Or an order.
Mr. Lattimore. Or an order.
The Chairman. Very well, proceed.
Mr. Morris. Have you ever consciously conformed your actions or
your expressions of opinion with any Communist policy or Commu-
nist directive ?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Morris. When you were editor of the publication Pacific
Affairs did you ever publish an article by a person whom you knew to
be a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. Apart from Russian contributions, no.
Mr. Morris. While you were editor of Pacific Affairs did you pub-
lish articles by persons whom you subsequently learned were members
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; learned or believed to be now.
Mr. Morris. Who were they, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. Well, Mr. Field, and I suppose I should include
any of those who have refused to testify before this committee.
Mr. Morris. Did you know that James S. Allen was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No, sir; I didn't. To the best of my recollection,
I knew nothing about him prior to his article coming in.
Mr. Morris. Prior to
Mr. Lattimore. His article being submitted.
Mr. Morris. Well, did you know him to be a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't think I did.
Mr. Morris. That is, during the time you were editor of Pacific
Affairs
Mr. Lattimore. During the time.
Mr. Morris (continued). Right up to the middle of 1941, did you
ever know that James S. Allen was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't think I did.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know that Joseph Barnes was a Commu-
nist?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Morris. Again during the term of your editorship of Pacific
Affairs?
Mr. Lattimore. Then or ever.
Mr. Morris. That term is applied to all of these questions. The^
term "while you were an editor of Pacific Affairs" is applied to all of
the questions I am now asking.
Mr. Lattimore. I see ; yes.
Senator Watkins. Mr. Morris, I think probably he ought to be
asked if he has ever been told by anyone that they were Communists
during that time, in addition to the question you have asked.
Mr. Morris. Were you ever told that James S. Allen was a Com-
munist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I was.
Mr. Morris. Were you ever told that Joseph Barnes was a Com-
munist ?
3126 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Kathleen
Barnes was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Mr. T. A.
Bisson was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Chi-
Chao-ting was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Chen
Han-seng was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Frederick
V. Field was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Michael
Greenberg was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you know or were you ever told that Y. Y. Hsu was
a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you know or were you ever told that Olga Lang
was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Harriet
Moore was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Lawrence
K. Rosinger was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Guenther
Stein was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Edgar
Snow was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Were you ever told that he was pro-Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore, No ; I don't believe I was.
Mr. Morris. Did you know that he was pro-Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. I didn't consider him pro-Communist.
The Chairman. The question is, "Did you know ?" I think you can
answer that "Yes" or "No," Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. To the best of my knowledge, he was not pro-Com-
munist.
Mr. Morris. Did you know that Andrew J. Steiger or were you
ever told that Andrew J. Steiger was a Communist?
Mr. Latteviohe. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Anna
Louise Strong was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you know or were you ever told that Mary Van
Kleeck was a Communist?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3127
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or have you ever been told that
Nym Wales was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore, No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know or were you ever told that Ella
Winter was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. SouRWiNE. If I might interrupt, by the witness' answer to each
of those questions "No ; I don't believe I ever was," do you intend the
"I don't believe I ever was" to refer to the portion of the question
about having been told ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes ; I include that.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Does the "No" go both to the question of knowing
and of having been told whether the person was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. In each instance?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Very good.
Senator Ferguson. So, even though there are two questions, you
are answering both of them "No" ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am answering both of them, to both parts of the
question, that I don't believe I ever was.
Senator Ferguson. Are you qualifying that answer ?
The Chairman. Wait a minute, now. Put the question again.
Senator Ferguson. Did you answer both parts of the questions, all
of the questions, "No" ?
Mr. Lattimore. I answered both parts of all the questions "No; I
don't believe I ever was."
Senator Ferguson. All right. Are you qualifying the "No" there?
Mr. Lattimore. I am qualifying that I don't believe I ever was.
Mr. Sourwine. The statement "I don't believe I ever was" is not
a completely responsive answer to the question, did you know So-an-
So was a Communist. That is all I was getting at.
Mr. Lattimore. I think it certainly is intended to be responsive,
Mr. Sourwine.
The Chairman. You mean to answer "No" ; do you not ?
Mr. Lattimore. I mean to answer "No" ; that I don't believe I ever
was. After all, my memory is not perfect. I am being asked about
people with some of whom I had extremely slight contact many years
ago.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, if I ask you "Did you ever know
that Y. Y. Hsu was a Communist?" and you say, "No", I don't believe
I ever was," it is not completely responsive. Do you see what I mean?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I was asked if I know or was I ever told
Mr. Sourwine. That is right.
Mr. Lattimore. That he was a Communist, and I don't believe I
ever was.
Mr. Sourwine. Ever was told.
Mr. Lattimore. Ever was told.
Mr. Sourwine. Specifically on the question of did you know.
Mr. Lattimore. And I don't believe I ever knew.
Mr. Sourwine. All right. That is your answer to each of these
series of questions?
3128 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS '
Mr. L'attimore. That is my answer.
Mr. SouRwiNE. That is all I wanted to know.
Senator Ferguson. Are you qualifying the word "no?"
Mr. Lattimore. I am saying that I don't believe I ever knew or
was told.
Senator Ferguson. I do not think that is responsive to the ques-
tion.
The Chairman. It is not responsive because he can say "No," and
that would answer the question. It is a complete answer to the ques-
tion.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator, it would be a complete answer to the ques-
tion if I had a total memory, but I just don't.
Mr. Morris. Were you ever told that Victor A. Yakontoff was
frankly pro-Soviet?
Mr, Lattimore. I don't believe so.
Mr. Morris. At any time ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Morris. Do you know a man who used the pen name of
Asiaticus ?
Mr. Lattimore. I never knew him. I received articles from him
which I published.
Mr. Morris. Did not all of the above 21 persons contribute leading
articles to Pacific Affairs while you were editor of Pacific Affairs?
Allen, Barnes, Kathleen Barnes, Bisson, Chi, Chen Han-seng, Field,
Greenberg, Hsu, Lang, Moore, Kosinger, Stein, Snow, Steiger, Anna
Louise Strong, Mary Van Kleeck, Nym Wales, Ella Winter, Victor
Yakontoff, and Asiaticus?
Mr. Lattimore. I would not be able to reply offliand that they all
contributed at all or that they contributed leading articles.
The Chairman. You weren't asked about leading articles. You
were asked did they contribute articles.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, I think I asked about leading articles.
The Chairman. Very well.
(Mr. Lattimore conferring with counsel.)
The Chairman. Did they contribute leading articles while you
were editor of the magazine ?
Mr. Morris. Do you want to refresh your recollection ?
The Chairman. Just a minute.
Mr. Morris. That is all right if he wants to refresh his recollection.
Mr. Lattimore. I have a list here of contributors to Pacific Affairs,
Mr. Chairman. I would like to consult it.
Mr. Morris. I think that is all right.
Mr. Lattimore. Did you say that Michael Greenberg was on that
list?
Mr. Morris. Yes ; Michael Greenberg.
Mr. Lattimore. My list here, which may not be correct, shows a
contribution from him in September 1941, which would be after the
period of my editorship.
Mr. Morris. I see. You didn't prepare for that edition.
Mr. Laitimore. No ; I don't think I did.
^ Mr. SouRwiNE. How much is the lag, Mr. Lattimore, in your maga-
zine? That is, what is your schedule? What is the time period
between preparation and going to press ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3129
Mr. Lattimore. This was a quarterly magazine, and therefore the
timing of a quarterly magazine is rather leisurely. Some of the
articles came from abroad. So some articles would be, so to speak,
in the works for more than the period between two issues. The clos-
ing date before going to press when I was editing for China was rather
long, naturally, because I had to send the final material from China.
Then, when I was editing it from Baltimore it was naturally very much
shorter, but I don't remember just what the time limit was.
Mr. bouRwiNE. Do you think it was a month, 6 weeks, 2 months?
Mr. Lattimore. It may have been of the order of 6 weeks or so.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Thank you.
Mr. Lattimore. Did you say that Y. Y. Hsu was on your list, Mr.
Morris ?
Mr. Morris. That is right, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't have him on my list at all. That may be a
mistake on my part.
The Chairman. I would like to have the answer, did he or did he
not? After you consult your list, I would like to have you answer
the question completely.
Mr. Lattimore. In that case my list may not be absolutely correct.
Mr. Morris, Would your list show a translation done by him, Mr.
Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. Possibly there may have been a translation by him
that wouldn't show in my list.
Mr. Morris. You would have the original listed there, not the trans-
lation ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Morris. I think that is enough on that, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I do not think you have an answer to the question.
Do you have your question there ?
Mr. Morris. With the exception of those two, Mr. Lattimore
Mr. Lattimore. I am going on through the list
The Chairman. Consult your list and then answer the question.
[Mr. Lattimore examining document.]
Mr. Lattimore. I think those are the only exceptions I would make,
Mr. Morris.
Mr. Morris. Otherwise your answer is "Yes," Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattpmore. That they contributed to Pacific Affairs during
the period when I was editor of it.
Mr. Morris. There was a further qualification, that it was leading
articles, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. Leading articles would be a question of subjective
judgment, and I am not sure whether I would qualify all those con-
tributions as leading articles.
Mr. Morris. How about the distinction of an article rather than
a review in Pacific Affairs ?
^ The Chairman. What do you mean by that, how about a distinc-
tion ? I don't think your question is clear.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, Pacific Affairs is made up of a series
of articles and a series of book reviews. There is a distinction be-
tween the two. In fact, you have them listed separate, do you not,
Mr. Lattimore ?
The Chairman. Make your question complete.
3130 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Morris. Would you testify that they contributed articles as
opposed to reviews ?
Mr. Laitimore. I see. I think there is a further distinction to be
made, that Pacific Aflairs
The Chairman. First of all, answer that question and then see if
there is a further distinction to be made.
Mr. Lattimore. I believe that they all contributed articles; yes, not
reviews.
The Chairman. If you wish to make a further distribution, you
may do so.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes. I was simply going to state that Pacific
Affairs included at the beginning of the magazine, articles. Then
there was a section called "comment and opinion" or "comment and
criticism," or something of that sort, which would be in a quarterly
magazine more or less the equivalant of a letters to the editor section,
and then came the book reviews.
Mr. Morris. If you use the term "leading articles," what would you
describe as a leading article, in Pacific Affairs ?
Mr. Lattimore. I would put it in the article section, but would not
include the comment and criticism section.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, have you testified in executive session
before this committee that you did not know Asiaticus to be a Com-
munist and in your opinion he was a Socialist?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I did ; yes.
Mr. Morris. Is the chairman satisfied with that answer? We will
have Mr. Lattimore's answer read into the record. He said he believed
he did.
The Chairman. Let us have it.
Mr. Lattimore. I am speaking from my recollection.
Mr. Morris. I understand you can't be expected to remember it
word for word.
Senator Ferguson. No. Show it to him and ask him if that is
true.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I have it here.
The Chairman. Show him the record and he may answer.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You will find it on that page, Mr. Lattimore [Mr.
Lattimore examining transcript].
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, my statement is that testimony was, "I don't
know he was a Communist. I would have said, speaking as of the
late 1930's, that I would have thought he was possibly a Socialist,
but not a Communist,"
Mr. ]\IoRRiss. All right. Mr. Lattimore, did you not testify in
executive session before this committee that you did not know that
Asiaticus was a Marxist?
Mr. Lattimore. May I see the transcript ?
Mr. Morris. Yes. That is on page 87.
Mr. Lattimore. I testified, "I didn't know whether he was a
Marxist or not. I thought he was a left-winger."
May I add there that this was many years ago, and my memory
may not have been perfectly accurate. Also I would like to add that
I certainly did not consider myself then and don't consider myself
even now an authority on who is a Marxist and who isn't.
JNlr. Morris. To your qnowled£:e was Asiaticus
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3131
The Chairman. The reference to many years ago doesn't refer
to the record you have in your hands, does it ?
Mr. Lattimore. That was not in the record. I am adding that now,
sir.
The Chairman. I know, but you said your memory many years
ago. You did not refer to the record that you made that was handed
to you today ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I didn't refer to it at the time. I said I wanted
to add that.
Mr. SouRwiNE. The Chairman means this record was not made
many years ago.
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I was just adding a clarification.
Mr. Sourwine. This record was on July 13, 1951.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Chairman, might the record be clear as to
what was in the record of the executive session and what he added?
I am not clear what he added.
Mr. Lattimore. I think the record should be clear on that.
The Chairman. Counsel may read the record.
Senator Ferguson. So it will be clear.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Asiaticus was under discussion. Mr. Morris said:
And yet, Mr. Lattimore, you were able to recommend him as a qualified per-
former for the Institute of Pacific Relations.
Mr. Lattimore said :
I didn't recommend him. He wrote in some material for me which I thought
was a good article on the subject and I published it. One of his articles was on
railway loans in China at the turn of the century, the late 1890's and the early
1900's. It concerned some of the British Railway loans of that period. I sent
the article, as I always did in such cases, to the Royal Institute of International
Affairs in London, and they disagreed with some of his interpretations but not
with his statements of facts.
INIr. Morris. You knew at the time he was at least a Marxist, didn't you?
Mr. Lattimore. I didn't know whether he was a Marxist or not. I thought he
was a left-winger.
Mr. Morris. What do you mean by that term, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. That is a vague term which it is extremely difficult to make
precise.
In connection with the other matter
The Chairman. Let's not get that confused with the other matter.
Mr .Sourwine. I mean the other mention of Asiaticus.
Mr. Morris. Do you know that Asiaticus had any part in the inquiry conducted
by the Institute of Pacific Relations, the long inquiry that you people conducted
in the late thirties?
Mr. Lattimore. I couldn't answer that. I was not in charge of the inquiry and
I don't know who did participate and who didn't.
Mr. Morris. Can you recall that you commended Mr. Carter on the selection
of Asiaticus on that inquiry?
Mr. Lattimore. I can't recall it.
Mr. Morris. You do not recall that?
Mr. Lattimore. I wouldn't have been at all surprised, I thought he was a
good economist who knew economic conditions in China pretty well.
Mr. Morris. And it is your testimony that you did not know he was a Com-
munist?
Mr. Lattimore. I didn't know he was a Communist. I would have said, speak-
ing as of the late 1930's, that I would have thought he was possibly a Socialist,
but not a Communist.
3132 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, did you testify in executive session that
you did not know that Asiaticus had written for Imprecorr, the offi-
cial publication of the Communist International ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I did.
Mr. Morris. Page 86 and page 88.
The Chairman. Show that to him. [Mr. Lattimore examining
docmnent.]
Mr. Lattimore. The question here from Mr. Morris was, "Did you
know that he had written for Imprecorr." And, "Mr. Lattimore:
No ; I didn't."
May I add at this time that I doubt very much whether I knew in
the 1930's that there was such a thing as Imprecorr.
Mr. Morris. To your knowledge, Mr. Lattimore, was Asiaticus
considered a Marxist in IPK. circles ?
Mr. Lattimore. I couldn't answer that, Mr. Morris.
Mr. Morris. Do you have knowledge that he was considered a
Marxist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't think I do. I don't know and I don't
think I ever did.
Mr. Morris. I see. Did you know that Asiaticus had written a
book published in Berlin under Communist auspices entitled "From
Shanghai to Canton"?
Mr. Lattimore. Here I am speaking from recollection which is not
at all precise, but I believe I may have been told that by Wittfogel.
Mr. Morris. Did you know that he had written the book From
Shanghai to Canton from your own knowledge ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not from my own knowledge, no.
Mr. Morris. Did you read the book?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Morris. What names did you know Asiaticus by? Did you
know him by the name of Shippe ?
Mr. Lattlmore. Shippe, or Shipper; yes.
Mr. Morris. Hans Mueller?
Mr. Lattimore. Hans Mueller ? I don't think I did.
Mr. Morris. Any other name?
Mr. Lattimore. No, Not that I recall.
Mr. Morris. When you corresponded with him you corresponded
with him in the name of Shippe ; is that your testimony ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is my recollection, yes.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, how many articles did Asiaticus write
for you while you were editor of Pacific Aif airs ?
Mr. Lattimore. My list here shows four.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, so we will be sure we are talking about
the same man, I show j'ou a volume of Pacific Affairs. Which one
is that?
Mr. Lattimore. This is volume 9 for June 1936.
Mr. Morris. Does that contain an article by Asiaticus ?
Mr. Lattimore. It contains an article by Asiaticus.
Mr. Sourwine. May I see that, Mr. Lattimore? Mr. Lattimore,
are any of these people who wrote for this particular issue of Pacific
Affairs, Communists so far as you know ?
Mr. Laitimore. Not of my personal knowledge.
Mr. Sourwine. Harriet Moore?
Mr. Lattimore. Not of my personal Imowledge.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3133
Mr. SouRwiNE. Asiaticus?
Mr. Lattimore. Not of my personal knowledge.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Guenther Stein ?
Mr. Latt'more. Not of my personal knowledge.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Lin Yu?
Mr. Lattimore. Not of my personal knowledge.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Wang Yu-Ch'uan ?
Mr. Lattimore. Wait a minute. Lin Yu I don't even remember.
Mr. SouRAviNE. He wrote "Twin Loyalties in Siam."
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't believe so.
Mr. SouR^viNE. Wang Yu-Chuan?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. H. J. Timperley?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. SouR^vINE. W. Wynne Williams ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't even recall him.
Mr. SouR'wiNE. C. J. Robertson?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't even recall him.
Mr. Sourwine. A. Arthur Schiller?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't recall him.
Mr. Sourwine. Would you say, then, that there are no Communist
writers represented in that issue of the magazine; that is, the June
1936 issue ?
Mr. Lattimore. In that issue certainly to the extent of my knowl-
edge at the time as editor, no.
Senator Watkins. May I inquire just what do you mean by your
personal knowledge ? Are you seeking to make a distinction between
that and their reputation ?
Mr. Lattimore. No. What name was read here ? Harriet Moore ?
1 have no personal knowledge that she is a Communist.
Senator Watkins. Was she reputed at that time to be a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't think so. I don't remember hearing
that.
Senator Watkins. Was she generally considered so in your IPR
circle ?
Mr. Lattimore. In 1936 ?
Senator Watkins. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Were any of those persons reputed to be Commun-
ists as far as you know?
Mr. Lattimore. On this list?
Mr. Sourwine. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Manclel, will you read into the record at this time
the testimony of Mr. Wittf ogel that appears at 309 in the open session ?
Mr. Mandel. I read from the testimony of August Wittf ogel, dated
August 7, 1951, on page 309, part I of the hearings, reading as fol-
lows
Senator Ferguson. Just one moment.
Senator Watkins. Wliat hearings, Mr. Mandel?
Mr. Mandel. Hearings before this committee.
The Chairman. All right. Senator?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
88348— 52— pt. 9 16
3134 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Mandel. Quoting:
Dr. WiTTFOGEL. The Chi story I have told. No doubt I have said I discussed
it with Lattiuiore. The Asiaticus story I told you and I talked to Lattimore
after he came back here. We talked about Asiaticus, too, several times. I told
him the story the way I knew it ; I told Lattimore that.
Mr. MoRKis. Will you read what the reference is to, Mr. Mandel, on
page 308 ?
Mr. Mandel. On page 308 Dr. Wittfogel says in answer to Mr.
Morris' question :
Will you relate to us the circumstance of your meeting a man known as
Asiaticus in Shanghai in 1937?
Dr. Wittfogel. The name Asiaticus was known to me in Germany as the
name of a German Communist who had held a leading position in the German
party, who was known as Heinz Moeller, and who I think in the middle of the
twenties left Germany. His faction was defeated, and one of the ways of leaders
of such groups would be to make themselves useful in Moscow and be reassigned,
as Gerhardt Eisler was later on.
This man went to China and participated in the early developments of the
expansion of the Kuomintang regime, when there was cooperation with the
Communist Party at that time, from Canton into Yangtze Valley up to 1927.
And Moeller, who, like I think a number of other Communists held a position
in the Kuomintang government, and Mr. Stalin would say "apparatus."
He worked there in some kind of press or publicity
Mr. FoRTAS. That is "as." I think you misread a word.
Mr. Mandel (reading).
as Mr. Stalin would say "apparatus."
He worked in some kind of press or publicity center and put his articles or
some others together in a book which was published I think in 1928 in Germany
under the title, translated, "From Canton to Shanghai."
Mr. Morris. Did a Communist publishing house publish that Dr. Wittfogel?
Dr. WiTTroGEL. Yes, that is right, in Germany, and I was interested. He was
a protege of Gerhardt Eisler's, and I think this was not a very good book.
Mr. Morris. Keep going.
Mr. Mandel. Yes. [Beading :]
It was poorly written, and I think it was dull stuff. So I inquired about the
circumstances and I heard more about this Heinz Moeller. It was published
at that time. It was just before the fall of Eisler ; and Eisler wanted it, and
he was then powerful. The book was printed.
Mr. MoBRis. You say you met Asiaticus in Shanghai in 1937?
Dr. Wittfogel. That is right.
Mr. Morris. Will you tell us the circumstances?
Dr. Wittfogel. I met him in the house of, I think, some doctor, some people
from Europe who I don't think were political. I don't remember any details
about them. They said there was a man who would like to see me, and he
introduced himself as Asiaticus-Moeller. He told me he had been expelled —
maybe I knew it, I don't remember exactly how this came about — from the party
but that he had made his peace with the great father in the Kremlin and that
he had been back in Moscow and that he was in good standing again, and at that
time he was writing for Izvestia, which would indicate indeed he was in good
standing.
Mr. Moiu?is. You say you did meet him in Shanghai in 1937?
Dr. Witttfoof.l. That is right.
Mr. MoKRLS. Dr. Wittfogel, 1 would like to present to you a copy of a letter
which we introduced into our official files here as exhibit No. 4 on the first day
of tlie hearings.
Mr. IMoRRis. That is enough, Mr. Mandel.
Mr. Mandel , will you get the next document ? Will you identify this
document, please?
Mr. Mandel. This is a photostat of a document from the files of
the Institute of Pacific Relations headed "Meeting on Pacific affaire.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3135
April 8 ; Motiliev, Voitinsky, ECC, OL, Harondar, HM." And there
is a penciled notation which is photostated, marked "1936."
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, I offer you this document, and ask you
if you ever have seen this before.
The Chairman. I take it that you want him to see the original?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't believe I have ever seen it before.
Mr. Morris. Do you remember a meeting in April 8, 1936, in Mos-
cow in which those people enumerated there were present?
Mr. Lattimore. I recall one or more meetings with members of the
Soviet group of IPR. I couldn't tell you how many and I couldn't
tell you the exact dates. I am perfectly willing to accept that this
is the record of one of them.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, I wonder if you would read on page 3
the full paragraph beginning with "O. L." The reference "O. L." is to
you, is it not, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore; Presumably, yes.
Mr. Morris. Will you read aloud that paragraph, please, Mr. Latti-
more? Will you read this aloud, please, this paragraph?
Mr. FoRTAs. Did you say the third paragraph ?
Mr. Morris. No, the only paragraph beginning with "O. L." The
larger paragraph.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes. [Reading :]
O. L. asked if Motiliev had received both his long letters on the question of
P. A. and Motiliev said that he had only received the second. O. L. said that
his main difficulties had been two: (1) When he took over the editorship of
P. A —
That is Pacific Affairs —
it was after the last conference, and he and E. O. C. —
That is Mr. Carter.
did not want to determine a definite policy alone, since that vpould be a one-sided,
American decision. Therefore, no very clear policy was determined and this
is to be done at Yosemite, he hopes. (2) He has had trouble getting material
from the different councils. The lack of articles on
The Chairman. Will you raise your voice a little. I cannot hear
you.
Mr. Lattimore (reading) :
Japan is not the lack of asking. The Japanese council has promised articles
on rice, silk, and the cooperative movement. In the first five issues, it was
never known whether there would be enough material until a week before the
magazine went to press. At the beginning P. A. had no prestige and it was
difficult to get people to write for it. Some of the articles in the first issues are
padding, due to lack of material. Likewise, the Soviet council did not send
in its articles. The one article received from them was made the leading
article. It has only been in the last 2 or 3 months that O. L. has felt that he
could freely turn down articles. In the case of the Isaacs article, there was
not enough material for that issue. The Chinese council did not object to the
article and would give no answer to it and no other article on the same sub-
ject. It is impossible to get in touch with the Chinese Communists to get an
answer from them. O. L. did not know about the writer in China Today or
he would have tried to get the answer published in P. A. rather than in China
Today. However, when it was published in China Today, the question came
up whether the precedent should be set of republishing materials from othei
magazines. It had never been done, and P. A. was supposed to publish new
material. Therefore O. L. decided to print an extract of the answer and give
it a prominent place. O. L. had previously tried to get other articles on the
Chinese Revolution, but this was the only one he could get. It was made a
leading article in New York. In the next issue of P. A. there is to be an
3136 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
article by a Communist writer which is antagonistic to the Chinese council and
the British council. He likewise does not represent the Soviet council. This
will be a leading article and will represent a personal opinion.
Senator Ferguson. Is that the end of the paragraph?
Mr. Morris. Will you continue reading, please.
Mr. Lattimore. I"' thought you just wanted that one paragraph.
Mr. Morris. Is that a new paragraph?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Morris. That is enough, then.
The Chairman. No. It goes over on the next page.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes. [Heading:]
Motiliev said that it would be better to put as leading articles one that repre-
sented the point of view of one of the councils. O. L. said that he was pre-
pared to consider this idea
Mr. SouRwiNE. Actually the difference is that counsel and the Sena-
tors are looking at a mimeographed copy. Mr. Lattimore is look-
ing at the photostat of the original. I believe as the photostat shows
it, he has ended the reading of the paragraph. On the mimeo-
graphed copy it goes over to the top of the next page, and it can't be
determined whether it is a new paragraph or the same paragraph
because they are not indented.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Morris.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, you testified before the Tydings Com-
mittee that you did not know Dr. Chi to be a Communist.
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I probably did ; yes.
Mr. Morris. I think we had better read into the record, Mr. Man-
del, page 887 of the Tydings committee hearings.
Mr. Chairman, will that last document be received into the record ?
Mr. Sour\vine. As identified by Mr. Mandel as coming from the
files of IPR and as being the document commented upon by the wit-
ness. Here is the page of the Tydings transcript.
The Chairman. I would like to ask one question which I think the
witness has already answered. The letters "O. L." stand for Owen
Lattimore ; is that right ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
The Chairman. You so understand that.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, this is the Tydings hearings
Senator Smith. I think Dr. Lattimore made it clear, but lest it
may not be, the photostatic copy from which he read was a photostat
of the original. Have you seen that before ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't think I ever saw it before
The Chairman. I want to ask a question of Mr. Mandel. Mr.
Mandel, is this a true and correct photostatic copy of an original instru-
ment found in the files of the Institute of Pacific Relations?
Mr. Mandel. It is.
The Chah^man. It may be inserted in the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 478" and is as
follows:)
Exhibit No. 478
Meeting on Pacific Affairs; April 8; Motiliev, Voitinsky, ECC; OL;
Hakondab; HM
Voitinsky said that the magazine had been reviewed twice in Tikhii Okean and
there the general opinion about it had been stated. Such a magazine which is
important should have a definite aim. Although different opinions are expressed
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3137
in it, there should be a general line in it and this should be the struggle for peace.
The general tenor of the articles should be to show that collective security is the
only possible way to peace. This aim is so wide that it can be supported by
writers of all shades of opinion. At present the magazine has no line and this
is the main weakness.
Voitinsky said that the article by Whyte is interesting but incorrect in its
approach. It is a program article, about IPR policy. It treats China and Japan
on the same footing and shows no aggressor. How can there be an objective
study of the Pacific if no aggressor is shown. Whyte says that the causes
of the Pacific problems are internal— in China, currency ; in Japan, lack of
raw materials — and England and America should help to solve these problems.
But when no aggressor is recognized, the proposals are idealistic and weak, for it
is impossible to introduce a new economic policy before the aggressor is stopped.
Voitinsky said that in PA China is not treated as a subject, only as an object.
Therefore the writers neglect the possibility of China itself affecting the solu-
tion of China's problems. This is historically incorrect, and it makes it impos-
sible for students of the question to understand the current movements within
China. The Isaaks article, which is written at a very low level and is incorrect,
is an attempt to show something about the internal situation in China.
Voitinsky said that there was little in PA on the internal situation in Japan.
This is due to the fact that Japan is not regarded as an aggressor. But it is
important to know how strong Japan is socially and economically internally.
Likewise there is little on the question of nationalities — about Mongolia, and
the colonies in the Far East. No effort is made to show that Japan is trying to
exploit national culture and national feelings. In fact O. L. in his earlier
articles gave Japan the benefit of the doubt and said that Japan might help these
peoples.
O. L. asked if the article on the Japanese Monroe Doctrine was not about these
questions. Voitinsky said that it was good about the juridicial aspects. But
since the magazine represents an organization which is struggling for peace,
there were much greater possibilities for writing on these subjects.
E. C. C. said that the constitution of the IPR states as its object the study of
the conditions of the peoples on the Pacific. There is a controversy within the
institute as to whether the object is entirely scientific study, or active effort
to maintain peace.
O. L. said that the review of the magazine in Tikhii Okean was entirely correct
when it said that PA refiects the chaotic conditions in the opinions in capitalistic
countries.
Motiliev said that if the object is to reflect the conditions and life of the
peoples, still PA does not study the real social and economic life inside the coun-
tries— not in Japan, Korea, and other colonies. An objective study would in-
evitably show exploitation by the Japanese. Likewise the internal conditions
of China are not shown — what are the causes of the rise of red China ; what are
the causes of the contradictions in China ; what are the tendencies within China.
The same is true about Australia and the U. S. S. R.
O. L. asked if Kathleen Barnes' article did not give something on the United
States. Motiliev said that it only gave one side of the picture of the Soviet Far
East.
Motiliev said that even if the aim of PA was to characterize the general con-
ditions, it was impossible to do this without a definite idea about them. When
no definite idea is given for a magazine, the wrong idea is conveyed by it. M
there is no position taken on the problem of Japan's aggression in China, which
is now the fundamental problem in the Pacific, then it seems as if the wrong
position had been taken. In practice PA gives a definite political analysis,
which is one-sided and therefore incorrect. For instance the Eggleston article
fully justifies Japan, and tries to prove that England and the United States
are to blame for the far-eastern situation. O. L. pointed out that this article
reflects a definite body of opinion. Motiliev said that he was not against pub-
lishing this article, but also PA must give an analysis of the contradictions that
are found in Eggleston's analysis. This is very difiicult to do, because the IPR
has members in all countries involved. But in order to satisfy most of the
members of the institute, Motiliev thinks, it is necessary that PA have a definite
political position. As a result of the present absence^ of such a position, the
magazine is in fact directed against the ideal of peace. Even if the IPR doesn't
aim to work for peace, it certainly does not aim for war.
E. C. C. said that the magazine is not the whole of the institute. In some
of the other IPR work these analyses of internal conditions are being given,
3138 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
e. g., a book will appear this month by a Japanese on Japanese penetration of
mandated islands; a study is completed by a Korean on land utilization in
Korea ; a study is being done on agricultural organization in New Zealand which
shows the waste that there has been in the land policy there ; the book Key Eco-
nomic Areas in Chinese History is written by a Marxist and gives an analysis
of Chinese internal development. O. L. said that in the next issue there was
to be an article on the rise of land taxes and the fall of dynasties in Chinese
history, which was written by a Chinese, treating China as a subject, not an
object. E. C. C. said that PA will be without focus until the Soviet members
contribute to it regularly. PA has never received the article from Voitinsky on
agrarian problems in China. When Soviet articles appear regularly, they will
make the issues clearer and will show up the negative quality of many of the
oflipr irticlos
Motiliev said that another way to accomplish this was through greater objec-
tivity in the editorial work. For instance the Isaacs article on Perspectives of
the Chinese Revolution is written on a very low level and is incorrect. An article
on this question by a bourgeois journalist of good standing would be interesting.
But this is a Trotskyist article which doesn't reflect the opinion of any of the
councils of the IPR. A very serious answer to this article was published in
China Today, but only extracts from this answer were printed in PA. Motiliev
said that the Soviet Council could not answer this article, but he had suggested
tliat some of the Chinese leaders give an answer. Motiliev said he did not know
who the editor of China Today is, but his answer expressed the opinion of 50
million Chinese. Motiliev asked why this article was made the leading article.
The leading article should express the opinion of some one of the member
Councils, aiotiliev said that in general he did not think the magazine was objec-
tive, although some of its objects, such as trying to show different shades of
opinions, were carried out. The Isaacs article is only one example. For in-
stance the article on Fisheries, while on the whole objective, contains some incor-
rect information. Possibly this was due to the fact that the author did not know
the facts. Motiliev wrote to O. L. about these inaccuracies and nothing appeared
in PA about them. In general Motiliev thought that O. L. made it more difllcult
for himself by publishing leading articles like the Isaacs article and not publish-
ing the answers to them.
O. L. asked if Motiliev had received both his long letters on the question of
PA and Motiliev said that he had only received the second. O. L. said that his
main difficulties had been two : 1. When he took over the editorship of PA
it was after the last conference, and he and E. C. C. did not want to determine a
definite policy alone, since that would be a one-sided, American decision. There-
fore no very clear policy was determined and this is to be done at Yosemite, he
hopes. 2. He has had trouble getting material from the different councils. The
lack of articles on Japan is not for lack of asking. The Japanese Council has
pi'omised articles on rice, silk, and the cooperative movement. In the first five
issues, it was never known whether there would be enough material until a week
before the magazine went to press. At the beginning PA had no prestige and it
was difficult to get people to write for it. Some of the articles in the first issues
are padding, due to lack of material. Likewise, the Soviet Council did not send
in its articles. The one article received from them was made the leading article.
It has only been in the last 2 or 3 months that O. L. has felt that he could freely
tui-n down articles. In the case of the Isaacs article, there was not enough
material for that issue. The Chinese Council did not object to the article and
would give no answer to it and no other article on the same subject. It is im-
possible to get in touch with the Chinese Communists to get an answei* from
them. O. L. did not know about the writer in China Today or he would have
tried to get the answer published in PA rather than in China Today. However,
when it was published in China Today, the question came up whether the prece-
dent sliould be set of republishing materials from other magazines. It had never
been done, and PA was supposed to publish new material. Therefore O. L. de-
cided to print an extract of the answer and give it a prominent place. O. L. had
previously tried to get other articles on the Chinese Revolution, but this was the
only one he could get. It was made a leading article in New York. In the next
issue of PA there is to be an article by a Communist writer which is antagonistic
to the Chinese Council and the British Council. He likewise does not represent
the Soviet Council. This will be a leading article and will represent a personal
opinion.
IMotiliev said that it would be bettor to put as lending articles one that repre-
sented the point of view of one of the councils. O. L. said that he was prepared
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3139
to consider this idea, but often before he has not had an important article which
represented a council. O. L. said that if the Soviet group would show in their
articles a general line^a struggle for peace — the other articles would naturally
gravitate to that line. O. L. said that he had no organizational authority to tell
the councils what kind of articles they should send in. He hopes that this will
be settled at Yosemite.
Motiliev said that it was a dangerous editorial mistake to publish the Chamber-
lin review. It is not because the review was about a book by Stalin, but because
in the same review there was a review of a book by Chernavin. This is a very
important political question for them here.
They have no objection to having Stalin's book reviewed and they are willing
to answer a review, but the review must be done with due respect, to a person in
Stalin's position. Motiliev asked why the book was given to Chamberlin who
was known to be so anti-Soviet. (Incidentally Chamberlin's book has not been
received here for reviewing.)
O. L. said that he had not realized Chamberlin's position, but as soon as he
learned of the Soviet opinion about Chamberlain, he canceled an article on the
Soviet press which he had asked from Chamberlin.
Voitinsky said that he had not entirely understood E. C. C.'s answer to the
question of the aim of the institute. Voitinsky said that recently many organiza-
tions which had previously had no political opinions were taking definite positions.
The IPR is a big organization and is a kind of unofficial league in the Pacific.
Whyte in his article says that part of the aim of the IPR is to find a solution for
the situation in the Pacific. Therefore the IPR must take some line on this
question. Voitinsky said that he thought the IPR and PA must have as its aim
the struggle for peace — through scientific study and research aimed in that
direction. Voitinsky said that last year this point was not urged here, because
the Soviet group was still new in the IPR, but more because the objective situation
was not what it is today.
ECC said that this change in attitude toward political questions in the IPR was
already reflected in the change in the agenda for the fifth round table. Originally
this was to be about the changing balance of power in the Pacific — just an objec-
tive appraisal of the shifting balance. Now it is to discuss methods of peaceful
change and solution of the problem.
O. L. said that he was willing to have P. A. reflect such a line, but these positive
ideas can only be started positively. He cannot dictate to the other councils what
they must write. He must first have an original article taking a stand, and this
will make the others write to that point.
Voitinsky said that it would he possible to answer the Whyte article.
O. L. pointed out that his articles in PA had been criticized in Tikhii Okean,
but never in PA. He said that when Motiliev wrote to him about the fisheries
article, he had sent the corrections to New York, but they were too late to be in-
cluded in the original article. He did not know that Motiliev wanted to have
sections of his letter published. O. L. has considered starting a letter section in
PA. but to date there hasn't been enough material to make it possible.
ECC said that the Isaacs and Chamberlin articles were great mistakes, and
would not be repeated in the future. H. M. said that O. L. had nothing to do
with the Chamberlin reviews. That was done on the responsibility of the New
York Office.
Motiliev suggested that there be articles on sonie of the following: (1) In-
ternal relations in China, Japan, and the Japanese colonies. (2) Economic de-
velopment of the U. S. S. R. as a whole and the Soviet Far East. (3) General
conditions in the Pacific, the contradictions between countries, the question of war
and peace. Articles like Eggleston's should be printed, but they should be
criticized and answered.
O. L. said that he tried to get an answer to this article from many people, but
they all said that it was the opinion of the Australian Council and that there
was no need to answer it. Voitinsky said that the American council should have
answered it.
Motiliev made the following proposals as to organization of the magazine. A.
The leading article should always express the opinion of a definite council. It is
customary to have the leading article more or less official. B. Articles by un-
known and irresponsible writers should not be published on important questions.
But there should be articles by leading personalities who are of interest, no mat-
ter what they represent ; e. g., Bywater and Asiaticus. C. There should not be
criticisms of books and opinions of the leading personalities of the various mem-
ber countries. It is unnecessary to have such criticism, it is not part of the work
of the IPR, and it embarrasses the members of the councils.
3140 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Voitinsky said that now the Soviet group would try to write articles for PA.
O L said that if they would start it would give him a stronger hand with the
other councils. The British have been good about providing articles so far, but
the other councils have not been so good. „.. ,
O. L. said that he wanted a Soviet review of the Webb book. Voitmsky said
that it could be reviewed.
X I e King Edward
Stalin
HiKOHITO
The Chairman. What is the next question ? I think you were asked
to read, were you not, Mr. Mandel ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. I asked that it be given to the witness so that the
question may be asked of him if he did so testify before the Tydings
hearings.
(Mr. Lattimore examining document.)
Mr. Lattimore. The question is from Senator Hickenlooper :
During your acquaintance with Mr. Chi prior to the war or during the war did
you believe him to be or did you learn him to be a Communist at any time?
Dr. Lattimore —
It should have been Mr, Lattimore, of course.
Dr. Lattimore. No, sir ; no, sir.
Is that all you want me to read ?
Senator Ferguson. Just a moment. You had two answers, mean-
ing you answered both ; yes sir ?
Mr. Lattimore. I just repeated my answer, I suppose. I am read-
ing the transcript.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I think that answers counsel's question.
Mr. Morris. Did you testify before this committee in executive ses-
sion that you never at any time knew that Dr. Clii was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I probably did. May I see the record?
Mr. Morris. Executive session, 155, top of the page.
Mr. Lattimore. Question by Mr. Morris :
Dr. Lattimore, did you ever at any time know that Dr. Chi was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. Young Dr. Chi?
Mr. Morris. Young Dr. Chi.
Mr. Lattimore. No; I didn't.
Mr. IMoRRis. Mr. Lattimore, did you testify in executive session
that only on one occasion did you meet Dr. Chi's father in China?
Mr, Lattimore. I testified that I met Dr. Chi's father in China only
on one occasion. Later my memory was refreshed and I wrote in to
the committee explaining that I met him twice.
The Chairman. You were asked what you testified to.
Mr. Morris. You did testify to that effect and you did also send
a letter to the committee stating that you had learned otherwise.
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Morris. Is this the letter you sent to the committee ?
Mr. Lattimore. This i§ the letter, yes.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, may that letter be received into the
record as a change that Mr. Lattimore wanted to make in his testi-
mony in the executive session before this committee ?
The Chairman. Let me see it.
Mr. Sourwine. If that is the case, the witness should adopt this
letter as his testimony now. I assume that is his desire.
Mr. Lattimore. Sure.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3141
Mr. Morris. Except, of course, that he does go on record to show
that he learned this some time ago and not today.
Mr. SouRwiNE. He adopts this letter as written as his testimony
now.
The Chairman. There is your letter ; is that correct ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is correct.
The Chairman. It will be inserted in the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 479" and is
as follows :)
Exhibit No. 479
The Johns Hopkins University,
Walter Hines Page School of International Relations,
Baltimore 18, Md., September 2, 1951.
Hon. Pat McCarran,
Chairman, Senate Judiciary Committee,
Seriate Office Building, Washington, D. C.
My Dear Mr. Chairman : It is my recollection that in executive session of your
subcommittee on July 13 I was asked about meeting Prof. K. C. CM, then Com-
missioner of Education in Shansi Province, in China, in 1937, and that I con-
firmed that I had. It is further my recollection that I was asked whether I had
met him in China on any other occasion, and that I replied that I could not
remember that I had.
It has now been drawn to my attention that in a public session of your sub-
committee Dr. K. A. Wittfogel testified that he and I had met Professor Chi, also
in Shansi Province, in 1935. This testimony has refreshed my memory, and
I wish to confirm that I did meet Professor Chi in 1935, in company with Dr. Witt-
fogel and, if I remember rightly. Dr. Woodbridge Bingham. I believe also that
I remember that Professor Chi was advised beforehand of our coming to call
on him by Dr. Walter Judd, now Representative Judd, who was then a missionary
in that province, and whose mission was on cordial terms with the Chi family.
I wish to add to my previous testimony accordingly.
Yours sincerely,
[s] Owen Lattimore,
[t] Owen Lattimore.
OL:c.
Mr. Morris. Did you testify in executive session before this com-
mittee that you had no reason to believe that Dr. Chi could be a
Communist? That is 155.
Mr. Lattimore. Again young Dr. Chi ?
Mr. Morris. Young Dr. Chi.
(Mr. Lattimore examining transcript.)
Mr. Lattimore (reading) :
Senator Ferguson. And you had no reasons to believe that he could be a
Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Morris. Had anyone ever told you he was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Morris. I think that is enough.
Mr. Lattimore, did you in executive session before this committee
testify that no one ever told you that Dr. Chi was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. Probably.
Mr. Morris. Didn't you just read it there?
Mr. Lattimore. You are referring to this ? Yes.
Mr. Morris. Your answer is "Yes" ?
Mr. Lattimore. My answer was "Yes" ; yes.
Mr. Morris. Did you not testify in executive session before this
committee that no one had related to you the circumstances, the inevi-
table conclusion of which would have been that Chi was a Communist ?
3142 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. I just read that in the transcript.
Mr. Morris. That is page 156, another place, Mr. Lattimore. You
may want to see it.
Mr. Lattimore. I did see it just now.
Mr. Morris. Very good. Your answer is "Yes" ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
ISIr. Morris. Did you ever receive an official report to the effect that
Dr. Chi was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. Not that I can recollect.
Mr. Morris. Did you testify before this committee that you did not
have any reasonable grounds to believe that Dr. Chi was a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. I believe I did.
Mr. Morris. 155.
Mr. Lattimore. This is my testimony :
In the case of Dr. Cbi, my principal contact with him was during the war
years, when he was holding extremely high and confidential positions under the
Chinese Nationalist Government.
Senator Ferguson. And you had no reasons to believe that he could be a
Communist?
Mr, Lattimore. No.
Mr. Morris. Will you read further? I think there is another refer-
ence there.
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Morris. Had anyone ever told you he was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Morris. So your answer to that last question is — —
Mr. Lattimore. That that was my testimony.
Mr. Morris. Did you testify before this committee in executive
session that you had no evidence that he might be a Communist ?
Mr. Lattimore. I presume so.
Mr. Sourwine. The same page, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. What was that page?
Mr. Sourwine. 155.
Mr. Lattimore. What was the (question?
The Chairman. Read the question again.
Mr. Morris. Did you testify before this committee in executive ses-
sion that you had no evidence that he might be a Communist ?
The Chairman. Page 155 of the executive hearing.
Mr. Lattimore. Oh, yes.
Senator Ferguson. Had you any evidence that they might be Communists?
Mr. Lattimore. In the case of Miss Chomeley I knew her much too little to
have an authoritative opinion one way or another.
In the case of Dr. Chi, my principal contact with him was during the war
years, when he was holding extremely high and confidential positions under the
Chinese Nationalist Government.
Mr. Morris. Well, did you testify before this committee in executive
session that you had no evidence that he might be a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. Senator Ferguson then goes on :
And you had no reasons to believe that he could be a Communist?
Mr. IjAttimore. No.
Mr. Morris. So what is the answer to that question ?
Mr. Lai'itmore (reading) :
Mr. INIORRis. Had anyone ever told you that he was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3143
Mr. Morris. Had anyone ever related to you the circumstances, the inevitaoie
conclusion of which would have been that he was a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Senator Ferguson". That is, the answer was "No" ?
Mr. Lattimore. The answer was "No."
The Chairman. Then the answer to this question is "Yes," that he
so testified ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think that is the same question, Mr. Morris ;
is it?
Mr. Morris. May I see page 155, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Fortas. The record speaks for itself.
Mr. Sourwine. The record does speak for itself. It has been read
here now by the witness and it is a part of the record. There is no
point in quibblino; over what it said.
Mr. Fortas. That is how I characterize it. I agree with you.
Mr. Sourwine. I think counsel's original question was intended to
simplify it, but it hasn't turned out that way.
Mr. Morris. Did you not testify that Dr. Chi, as far as your con-
tacts with him were concerned, held an extremely high and confidential
position in the Chinese Nationalist Government ?
' Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I did.
Mr. Morris. Did you know that Dr. Chi wrote for China Today
under the name of Hansu Chan ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I don't think I ever knew that.
Mr. Morris. Did you ever know it at all ?
Mr. Lattimore. My memory is not clear. It may have been in one
of the transcripts of tJiis committee that I have read.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Mandel, will you read the testimony on page 81
of the executive session, the executive session with Mr. Lattimore?
]\Ir. Sourwine. If it is Mr. Lattimore's testimony, why not give it to
him and ask him if he testified that way ? This is a part of the record.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, will you read page 81 — your testimony
on that page relative to this question?
The Chairman. Read the question again, Mr. Morris.
Mr. Morris. Did you know he wrote for China Today as Hansu
Chan ?
Mr. Lattimore (reading) :
Mr. Morris. Did you know that he contributed to China Today?
Mr. Lattimore. I learned that some time ago. I didn't know it at the time tnai,
I knew him.
Mr. Morris. Did he not make a contribution under a pseudonym?
Mr. Lattimore. So I have been told.
Mr. Morris. Do you remember what the pseudonym was?
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Morris. When were you told that, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. I think that was in some publication by Kohlberg or some
other member of the China Lobby.
Mr. Morris. "Wlien were you told that Dr. Chi wrote for China
Today?
Mr. Lattimore. I think my answer in executive session covers my
recollection of it, Mr. Morris.
Mr. Morris. And what is that, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. That I read about it in some publication.
Mr. Morris. Can you give us the date ?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I can't.
3144 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Morris. Did you know that China Today was a Communist or
pro-Communist publication?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I didn't, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Morris. Did you testify before the Tydings committee that
you did not know the New China Daily News to be Communist m
1942 or 1943?
Mr. Lattimore. May I amplify my answer on the subject o± China
Today? .^ ,
Mr. Morris. The question, Mr. Lattimore, is, Did you testify be-
fore the Tydings committee that you did not know the New China
Daily News to be Communist in 1942-43.
Mr. Lattimore. I mean the previous question on China Today.
The Chairman. What was the previous question ?
Mr. Morris. Did you know China Today to be Communist or pro-
Communist?
Mr. Laitimore. I don't think I ever knew that until much later,
and among my reasons for not thinking it Communist was the fact
that its contributors included Mme. Chiang Kai-shek, Geraldine
Fitch, now active in the China lobby; her husband, George Fitch,
of the YMCA
Mr. Sourwine. Are you testifying from memory, Mr. Lattimore.?
Mr. Lattimore. No, I am testifying from looking up some copies
of China Today recently.
Mr. Sourwine. Go ahead.
Mr. Lattimore. Senator Schwellenbach ; Freda Utley, a former
member of the staff of this committee ; Emory Luccock, L-u-c-c-o-c-k,
pastor of the American Church in Shanghai; Edward Hume, di-
rector of the Christian Medical Council; Harry B. Price; and Father
Charles Meeus, M-e-e-u-s. In November 1938 it published an inter-
view with Bishop Paul Yu Pin and in the same month Walter Judd
spoke at a meeting sponsored by the American Friends of the Chinese
People of which China Today was the organ. On the cover of the
July 1939 issue was a picture of the Chiang Kai-sheks.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, at this point may I have referred to the
record our exhibit No. 54 which was introduced in open session on
August 42, 1951. Mr. Mandel, will you read that letter into the record
at this time? I would like that to apply to this part of the record,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Mandel. This is a photostat of a letter dated December 13,
1939, addressed to Mr. Max Granich, China Today, 168 West Twenty-
third Street, New York, N. Y. It is evidently a photostat of a car-
bon. There is a typed signature of Owen Lattimore.
Mr. Morris. Was the document taken from the files?
Mr. Mandel. The document was taken from the files of the In-
stitute of Pacific Relations.
Mr. Morris. Will you read the first paragraph, Mr. Mandel?
Mr. Mandel. Yes.
Deab Mk. Granich : Thank you for your letter of December 11. I am afraid
that my position as editor of Pacific Affairs makes it impossible for me to join
the editorial board of China Today. I am a member of the international secre-
tariat of tlie Institute of Pacific Relations). This means that one of my em-
ployers is the .Japanese council of the Institute of Pacific Relations. There has
already been a considerable kick about my being on the board of Amerasia. It
is probably hotter for me not to invite extra kicks by going on the board of
China Today, which is more partisan, and more obviously partisan, than
Amerasia.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3145
Mr. SouRWiNE. Can that be shown to the witness ?
(Document shown to Mr. Lattimore.)
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Lattimore, is that a copy of a letter which you
wrote ?
Mr. LATTmoRE. Yes, it is.
There is another paragraph here that has not been read into the
record.
Mr. Morris. Would you like to read it in, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. The whole thing is in the record ; is it not ?
Mr. Morris. Yes, it is, Mr. Sourwine. Would you like to read it,
Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. LATTmoRE (reading) :
I have been desperately busy the last few months completing a book, and cou-
sequently have published very little in magazines. I am expecting to write some
articles in the next few months, but I think you will agree that these articles
would have their maximum impact if not published in magazines which are
devoted to "the cause of China."
Mr. Morris. "The cause of China" is in quotes.
Mr. Lattimore. "The cause of China" is in quotes.
Mr. Morris. That is in the record, Mr. Chairman.
Did you testify before the Tydings committee that you did not Know
the New China Daily News to be Communist in 1942-43?
Mr. Lattimore. 1942-43 ? Yes, I believe I did.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have introduced or a
reply to the record at this time exhibit No. 35, which was introduced
into the record on July 26, 1951, page 180. Mr. Mandel, will you
identify this document and read it into the record ?
Mr. Mandel. This is a photostat of a document, of a carbon copy,
in the files of the Institute of Pacific Eelations. It is dated October
17, 1910. At the top are initials ECC and WLH. It is addressed
to Mr. F. V. Field, American Peace Mobilization, 1116 Vermont
Avenue, NW., Washington, D. C. The typed signature is Owen
Lattimore.
Mr. Morris. Will you read, Mr. Mandel.
Mr. Mandel. Yes. [Reading :]
Dear Fred : Enclosed I am sending you an article submitted to me by Asiaticus.
For readers of Pacific Affairs, it would read like propaganda, and rhapsodical
propaganda at that. As the article is also too long, however, we might be
able to shorten it, pruning out a great many adjectives but still retaining the
realistic points. However, it is too late for our December issue.
I am therefore sending you the article as is, to see whether you may have
any suggestions for placing it.
The sooner you can look in on us, the better we'll be pleased.
Yours,
Owen Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore. May I see that?
Mr. Morris. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Can you identify that letter, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. This is quite evidently a letter that I wrote; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, may I ask for a short recess in execu-
tive session.
The Chairman. Just 1 minute.
Mr. Lattimore. The date is 1940, yes.
Mr. Sourwine. May I ask for a short recess in executive session ?
The Chairman. Very well.
3146 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. Could the committee retire, this room being as
full as it is.
(Whereupon, at 11: 15 a. m. the subcommittee Avent into executive
session.)
(Whereupon, at 11 : 30 a. m., the hearing was reconvened.)
The CHAiR]NrAN. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Chairman, may I add to an answer that I
made to Mr. Morris sometime ago, when he was asking me about
Communist contributors to Pacific Affairs?
The Chairman. Was that this morning?
Mr. Lattimore. This morning's session, yes.
The Chairman. What was the question? We want the question
first.
Mr. Lattimore. Could you remember the question, Mr. Morris?
It was about Communist contributors to Pacific Affairs.
The Chairman. Will the reporter read the question?
Mr. Latti3iore. It was a question something about "Did you ever
publish Communist contributors?" or something of that sort.
Mr. Morris. When you were editor of the publication Pacific Af-
fairs, did you ever publish an article by a person whom you knew
to be a Communist ?
The Chairman. Is that the question ?
Mr. Lattimore. That is the question to which I refer. I merely
wanted to point out
The Chairman. What was your answer to it, please? Mr. Morris,
will you give the question so the reporter can go through his notes ?
Mr. Morris. The question was : When you were editor of the pub-
lication Pacific Affairs, did you ever publish an article by a person
whom you knew to be a Communist ? That was the seventh question
on my list here.
(The record was read by the reporter as follows:)
Mr. Morris. When you were the editor of the publication Pacific Affairs, did
you ever publish an article by a person whom you knew to be a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. Apart from Russian contributions, no.
Mr. Lattimore. I simply wanted to point out, Mr. Chairman, that
my memory had slipped a rather obvious cog, since, on page 6 of the
statement that I read before this committee there is the following :
The Chairman. Page 6 of what ?
Mr. Lattimore. Of my statement prepared for this committee.
* * * an article by a Chinese Communist which was clearly labeled as
such and was presented as an example of what the Chinese Communists were
saying.
Mr. Sourwine. You identified that, I believe, under questioning, as
an article written by Man Ning, is that right?
Mr. Lattiimore. I think I may have said that it might have been
by him. My recollection is not clear. As I recall, it was an article
about the Chinese Communists in northwest China which had been
originally ]H-iiited in China, and was translated and sent to us, and
we published it, labeling it as a translation of a Chinese Communist
article, giving it as an example of what the Communists were saying
in China.
Mr. Morris. Mr. Lattimore, will you take this issue of June 1936,
Pacific Affairs, and tell us which article there is referred to as the
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3147
article by a Commimist writer which is antagonistic to the Chinese
council and the British council, referred to in the minutes which have
been presented to you of the April 8, 1936, meeting in Moscow?
Mr. Lattimore. I can't point to such an article, Mr. Morris. I be-
lieve the note that was read was something about a Chinese Com-
munist, wasn't it?
Mr. Morris. What note are you referring to, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. The minutes of that meeting in Moscow.
Mr. Morris. There is no reference to a Chinese Communist writer
here, the statement is
Mr. Lattimore. May I see what the original text was ?
Mr. Morris. That is a stencil, Mr. Lattimore.
Mr. Lattimore (reading) :
In the next issue of PA, there is to be an article by a Communist writer which
is antagonistic to the Chinese council and the British council.
The Chairman. T\niat is the question, please?
Mr. Morris. Wliat is the Communist article that you referred to ?
According to these minutes, you say it is coming out in the next issue
of Pacific Affairs, which you now have before you.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't recall. I don't believe it refers to this ar-
ticle by Asiaticus, if that is what you mean.
Mr. Morris. Does not the article by Asiaticus — is it not antagonis-
tic to both the Chinese council and the British council?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't think it is antagonistic to the Chinese
council.
Mr. Morris. It talks about usury on the part of the Chinese Gov-
ernment, doesn't it ?
Would you look at it a minute, Mr. Lattimore?
Mr. Lattimore. Where is the article now? Can you give me the
page reference ? Where is the statement about usury ?
Mr. SotTRWT^NE. Do you mean to say, Mr. Lattimore, while we are
waiting to find that, that you were not referring to the Asiaticus
article during this conference with Motiliev, Voitinsk}^, and the
others ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; my recollection is that at that time, or just be-
fore that time, while I was in China, I had been trying to get hold
of a Chinese Communist article of some kind, and that I thought I
had, but eventually failed. My recollection is that happened several
times. There may be some correspondence about it in the files.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You are saying that, to the best of your memory,
Asiaticus was not a subject for discussion at this conference?
Mr. Latti3iore. To the best of my memory, this reference in the
conference is not to Asiaticus.
Mr. Morris. When did that particular article go to press, Mr.
Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't i-emember.
Mr. Morris. May I get back to this other question about the usury ?
Mr. Lattimore. Surely.
Mr. Morris. Will you read the first paragraph on the top of page
167.
Mr. Lattoiore. The whole paragraph ?
Mr. Morris. Yes.
Mr. Lattijiore. On the top of page 167.
3148 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Nor was this all. Besides the lucrative business for the banks and bondholders,
there were other advantages, some of which may be quoted from clauses of the
loan agreement. First of all, the loan was to be secured on "the entire revenues
of the Chinese Maritime Customs." In addition to this, the Chinese Govern-
ment undertook that "the administration of the Chinese Maritime Custom Serv-
ice shall remain as at present during the currency of this loan." This makes it
possible to understand another of the clauses reading as follows : "During the said
term of 45 years, the amortization shall not be increased nor the loan redeemed
nor converted by the Chinese Government."
The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corp., which alone took half of the loan,
became at the same time the depositary bank of the Maritime Customs, the biggest
source of Chinese public income. The gigantic usury and national humiliation
contained in this one loan agreement are guaranteed to this day by the British
supervisory control of the Maritime Customs and executed by the Honkong and
Shanghai Banking Corp., the trustees of almost all of the British loans to the
Chinese Government.
Mr. Morris, I should like to point out that that paragraph would
have been entirely welcome to the Chinese council of the IPR as of
1936.
Mr. ]\IoRRis. What is the national humiliation referred to ?
]\Ir. Lattimore. That refers to the kind of loans — the kind of loan
agreements that China had to sign before the time of the Nationalist
Government, and protests against such loans and demands for revisions
of such treaties were part of the policy of the Chinese Nationalist
Government.
Mr. Morris. And what was the usury referred to, on whose part?
Mr. Lattimore. I would say that referred to the British. I may add
that this particular article by Asiaticus was submitted to the British
in advance, met with protests from them on the interpretation of the
facts, but none of the facts were disputed and the criticism or sugges-
tion was not made that it was an article by a Communist.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Lattimore, if the chairman will permit
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. So that we may get correctly what you referred to
as your reference earlier in your statement to an article by a Chinese
Communist, is that from page 6 of your statement ?
;Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. Sourwine. You said it was clearly established in the Tydings
committee hearings that in fact —
I had never called the Chinese Communists agrarian reformers, nor had Pacific
Affairs carried articles calling them agrarian reformers, with the single excep-
tion of an article by a Chinese Communist which was clearly labeled as such,
and was presented as an example of what the Chinese Communists were saying.
Mr. Lattimore. That is right.
Mr. SouKwiNE. I had asked you at the time if that article that you
referred to was not the article Agrarian Democracy in Northwest
China by Mau Ming.
Mr. Lattimore. I had forgotten the name Mau Ming, but by its title
of the article, I recognize it. That is the article.
Mr. Sourwine. That is the article that you did refer to ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. And does that appear in this issue of Pacific Affairs ;
does it?
Mr. Latitmore. It does not appear in this issue of Pacific Affairs,
and in the issue in which it does appear the article is identified, the
original Chinese publication is identified, the name of the translator
is given.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3149
Mr. SouRwiNE. Now, in this conference that yon were having, sir,
on April 8, tlie memorandum recites that yon stated that the next issue
of Pacific Affairs — that is, the next issue after the conference— was
to have an article by a Conununist writer which would be antagonistic'
to the Chinese council and the British council.
Are you now stating that there was in fact no such article published
in the next issue of Pacific Affairs, that is, this June issue that we have
before us?
Mr. Lattimore. That is my recollection. My general recollection
of that period, as I say, is that as editor of Pacific Affairs I was try-
ing to get something that would represent the Communist problem in
China ; this problem was of growing importance, other publications
were trying to get material on it, and I was trying to find a Chinese
Communist who would write an article for us; maybe it would have
to be translated or something of that kind,
I never succeeded in getting one.
Mr. SouRwiXE. Where was that conference held, this meeting be-
tween yourself, Motiliev, Voitinsky, Harondar, and HM. I suppose
that is Harriet Moore ?
iNIr. Lattimore. Yes; that must have been Harriet Moore.
Mr. Sourwixe. Wh.ere was it held?
Mr. Lattimore. AMiere was it held?
Mr. SouRwiNE. What country and city?
]\Ir. Lattimore. It was held at the office of the Russian council of
the IPR, as far as I remember.
Mr. SouRWiNE. In Russia?
IVIr. Lattimore. In Russia, yes.
Mr. Sourwine. In Moscow?
Mr. Lattimore. In Moscow.
Mr. SouRwixE. Actually, that was April 8, and we are talking about
the June issue. Had not the June issue already closed at that time?
Mr. Lattimor. I couldn't tell you whether it had or not.
Mr. SouR^^^XE. You had a 6-weeks lag when you were editing it
from Baltimore, and a much longer lag when you were out of the
country, isn't that right ?
Mr. Latti^more. I am not sure what the lag was. There may have
been an article submitted which was considered, you know, just a
Communist tirade and not what we want, and therefore thrown out,
or something of that sort.
Mr. SouRwixE. Certainly you had to close this book at least a
month before it was printed, did you not ? _
Mr. Lattimore. You may remember, ]Mr. Sourwine, that when I
asked you about the lag in publication, I was extremely uncertain
on the subject.
Mr. SoFRwixE. Well, you edited this magazine for some years,
didn't vou ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes; I did.
:Mr. Sottrwixe. What is the shortest lag you ever had between
closiiiiT fiud printiiiji? That is something you would remember.
Mr.^^LATTi^iioRE. Xo: it is simply that I have a general memory
that there was a lag. I don't remember exactly what it was.
Mr. Sox RwixE. Are you telling us here, Mr. Lattimore, that you
could have edited a magazine for years and not known what the dead-
line was?
88348— 52— pt. 9— — 17
3150 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. If I had edited a magazine that always had the
same deadline, I would probably remember. But this was an ex-
tremely shifting business.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you say shifting?
Mr. LA-mMORE. Yes; because I was editing from different places,
and my general recollection is that the first few years, you see — I be-
gan in 1934 — if we had an April issue, that it should appear in April,
that in the early years, owing to delay in getting material, sometimes
the April issue would apjDear after April, or the June issue after
June.
Mr. SouRWiNE. I am not asking you when it appeared. I am simply
asking you what was your minimum time lag, what was your deadline
schedule, how long before the actual publication did you have to close
the forms, did you have to have your copy in ?
You dealt with that. You met that every quarter. Now, cer-
tainly you can give us some idea about what it was.
Mr. Lattimore. I met it in a different way in many quarters, Mr.
Sourwine.
The Chairman. You are not answering the question at all, Mr.
Lattimore. Get at the question, please.
Mr. Lattimore. I am answering it to the best of my ability.
The Chairman. Give your best judgment, if you cannot do any
better, as to what the lag was. That is the question.
Mr. Lattimore. I don't believe there ever was any definite lag,
unless maybe after 1938, when I was editing from Baltimore and we
were close at hand.
Mr. Sourwine. You had to have your copy in at least a week before
the magazine was out in print, did you not ?
Mr. Lattimore. I couldn't tell you. I never handled that. I sent
my stuff to the New York office, and the New York office handled the
whole question of printing, printing contracts, distribution, mailing
out, and so on. I never had anything to do with it.
Mr. Sourwine. You are testifying under oath here, sir. Are you
telling this committee as editor of this magazine you don't know
whether you had to have your copy in at least a week before the pub-
lication date ?
Mr. Lattimore. I am saying, Mr. Sourwine, that I don't remem-
ber what the deadline was.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know whether you had to have it in at least,
a week before the publication ?
. Mr. Laitimore. I should think probably at least a week; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Don't you know whether it had to be at least a
week?
Mr. Lattimore. But the publication date itself would vary, Mr.
Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. By publication date, you are probably talking about
the date appearing on the magazine, and I am talking about the date
that it actually came off the press. Don't you know that you had to
have your copy in at least a week before the actual publication came
off the press ?
Mr. Lattimore. I will accept your estimate of that.
Mr. Sourwine. I am not estimating. I am asking you to state
categorically, do you know or do you not know that you had to have
your copy in at least a week before that magazine came off the press ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3151
Mr. Latteviore. All that I can testify, Mr. Sourwine, is that we
used to correspond back and forth with New York, and wherever I
was, and they would say "Will the copy be in by" such and such
a date, and when the copy was in, it was up to them to get it to the
printer and get it out.
Mr. SouR^^^NE. Are you saying that you do not, then, know that
you had to have your copy in at least a week before the magazine
came off the press ?
Mr. Lattimore. I do not know anything more than that I would,
by correspondence, fix a date with the New York office when I would
regard my copy sent in for the magazine as complete.
Mr. Sourwine. And would that date bear any relationship to the
date at which you hoped to get the magazine off the press i
Mr. Lattimore. It would bear a varying relationship.
Mr. Sourwine. Would you, when you were fixing that date, think
about the time when the magazine would probably come off the presSj^
if you met that deadline ?
Mr. Lattimore. I was not thinking in terms of when it would come'
off the press. I was thinking in terms of getting it out and dis-
tributed.
Mr. Sourwine. Well, would you think, when you were fixing the
deadline for getting copy in of that, in terms of when you would get
the magazine out and get it distributed?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwnne, you have all of the documents of
thelPR.
The Chairman. Strike that from the record, if you please. Mr.
Lattimore, when the chairman calls your attention to this, please desist
from further expression.
The question, Mr. Lattimore, has been propounded to you, and you
answered it this morning or yesterday when you said that probably
6 weeks, at times, was the lag. Now, if you do not know what the
lag was, state to the counsel that you do not know. If you know what
it was, state to the counsel that you know. If you cannot, then give
your best estimate as to what the lag was.
Mr. Lattimore. I can't state what the lag was. When Mr. Sour-
wine first asked me that question, I thought it was rather a trivial
question. If he wanted to have 6 weeks, I was perfectly willing to
have it.
The Chairman. There are no trivial questions here. We try to
get away from the trivial stuff. We got away from that yesterday.
We closed that ^yesterday.
Mr. Sourwine. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, when you, as editor of this magazine,
would fix a date by which you w^ere going to try to get your copy in —
in other words, a deadline — did you think of that deadline in relation
to the time when you would be able to get the magazine out and
distributed ?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes, I did.
Mr. Sourwine. Now, what was the relationship in your mind there
between the deadline which you fixed and the time when you would
be able to get the magazine out and distributed ?
Mr. Lattimore. At this date, I don't know. As I have already
said, I think it varied from quarter to quarter.
3152 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. SouRwiNE. How much did it vary ?
Mr. Laitimore. I don't recall.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did it vary by as much as a month from quarter to
quarter ?
Mr. Lattimore. It might easily have.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You mean that when you fixed your deadline,
Mr. Lattimore, you didn't know within a month when you were going
to be able to get the magazine off the press, if you met that deadline?
Mr. Lattimore. In the first, part of my editing of Pacific Affairs,
when I first started editing it from China, later when issues had to be
edited while I was traveling as in this case from China all the way
to America, it would vary considerably.
]\Ir. Soi-RwixE. Do you think, Mr. Lattimore, that you could pos-
sibly have gone on off to Russia, be there in April, and have left the
question of your June issue up in the air ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; there was an assistant editor in Xew York,
and to cover contingencies for a thing like that I would, like my travel-
ing, for instance, I would try to have extra articles on tap for that
issue so that the assistant editor could make a last-minute choice
and get out a full issue.
I may point out that this Communist article which I was expecting
■could easily have been an article mailed from Peking to New York
without my seeing it, in the manner in which that periodical was
edited, and it may never have come through, or may have come
through and been rejected.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Are you through ?
Mr. Lattimore. Surely.
Mr. SouRwiNE. As a matter of fact, Mr. Lattimore, at the time you
were having this conference on the 8th of April ■
The Chairman. Where?
Mr. SoFRWixE. The conference in Moscow with Voitinsky and Mo-
tiliev and others, don't you know now, and didn't you know then
whether the copy was all in for the forthcoming June issue of Pacific
Affairs?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't remember at all, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. When you said here "In the next issue there is to be
an article by a Communist writer," were you not referring to an article
which had already been edited, the copy on which had already been
sent to the printer?
Mr. Lattimore. Not necessarily. I could easily have been referring
to an article that was promised.
Senator Smith. Mr. Sourwine, may I suggest there that the lan-
guage is antagonistic. I would think that that would presuppose
that at that time the article was in existence, and Dr. Lattimore had
known it and had seen it, because he was pronouncing it antagonistic.
Mr. Soi'RWTNE. That is the point I w^as attempting to make. Senator.
Isn't that true, Mr. Lattimore ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, an article by a Chinese Communist
would automatically be displeasing to the Chinese council.
The Chairman. What is our question? Just a moment.
Mr. Sourwine. I asked him if it was not true that he w^as referring
to an article which was in existence which was antagonistic.
Mr. Lattimore. No ; not that I recall.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3153
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Lattimore, do you think it is possible that this
magazine, Pacific Affairs, could ever have come off the press in less
than a month after the time that the copy was all in ?
Mr. FoRTAS. Just a moment. Mr. Lattimore wants to consult me.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Surely.
The Chairman. Read the question, please.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Sourwine, I am incompetent to answer that
question.
Mr. SouRwiNE. That was the June issue. Do you know when it
came off the press?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't.
The Chairman. He says he is incompetent to answer that question.
Mr. Sourwine. I asked him another one.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Sourwine. I will show you the table of contents page and ask
you the question again. Do you know when that magazine came off
the press; that is, the June issue for 1936?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I don't know when it came off the press.
Mr, Sourwine. There is a time stamp and a copyright number on
that page, are there not ? What is the date stamp there ?
Mr. Lattimore. This stamp on here ?
Mr. Sourwine. Yes.
Mr. Lattimore. Is that a copyright stamp ?
Mr. Sourwine. Don't you recognize it as such ?
Mr. Lattimore. No; I don't. I don't think I have ever seen one
before. The stamp here, if it is a copyright stamp, is May 8, 1936.
Mr. Sourwine. Is there a copyright number there ?
Mr. Lattimore. There is a circle with a C in it, and C-l-B-299322.
It is the first time in my life I have ever seen such a mark. Perhaps
it is a copyright mark.
Mr. Sourwine. You edited the magazine for how many years?
Mr. Lattimore. I edited the magazine for nearly 7 years.
Mr. Sourwine. And this is the first time that you have ever seen
the symbol, a circle with a C in it, or knew what it meant ?
Mr. Lattimore. The first time I have ever seen it.
Senator Smith. May I inquire, is that on other copies also ?
Mr. Sourwine. There is a similar copyright stamp on all other
copies that we have been able to find in this volume, sir.
Mr. Lattimore. Does it show a considerable variation ?
Mr. Sourwine. There is some variation, ]\Ir. Lattimore. That ques-
tion had best be answered by giving the facts.
Senator Ferguson. Mr. Lattimore, did you not know that a copy
was sent to the Patent Office?
Mr. Lattimore. My knowledge of copyright procedure. Senator
Ferguson, is extremely vague. All I know about copyright procedure
is that I believe anything that is to be copyrighted has to be deposited
in the Library of Congress. Isn't that right ?
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, if I may be permitted to state this
for the record, the issue here, and I show it to the Chair as I speak, of
Pacific Affairs for March bears the copyright symbol and number
B-289470, and the date February 5, 1936. That is a variation of 3
days from the other one. That is, this is the March issue which was
copyrighted February 5.
3154 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
The June issue, the date which was given, was copyrighted May 8.
The September issue bears copyright number B-309436, was copy-
righted August 20. And the December issue copyright B-320637,
bears the date September 10, 1936.
I might also inform the committee, and if the committee desires
testimony or an affidavit on this point it can be secured, a telephone
check was made by the staff of the committee with Mr. Clyde S. Ed-
wards, Chief of the Serials Division of the Library of Congress, who
furnished this information ;
That Pacific Aifairs dated June 1936 was stamped May 11, 1936, the
date when that piece was received in the Periodicals Division for shelv-
ing; that the contents page, May 8, 1936, bears the copyright stamp
OCIB-29932, and that is the date when the issue was received in the
copyright office for registration, and that number is the copyright
registration number.
We are informed by Mr. Edwards over the telephone that the official
records of the Library of Congress so show.
If I might point out just one more thing. That means that this
magazine was off the press on May 8. It was off the press sufficiently
in advance of May 8 to have, by that date, reached the Library of Con-
gress as the official depository for copyright. It was then less than 1
month after the date on which the witness has testified that in Moscow
he was stating that this issue was to have in it an article by a Com-
munist writer which is antagonistic to the Chinese council and the
British council.
I would now like to ask you once more, Mr. Lattimore, whether you
still want to say that that article which you were referring to there was
not then in existence and the copy had not then been sent to the
printer?
Mr. Lattimore. I don't believe it could have been, Mr. Sourwine,
I have a general but clear recollection that there are a number of
cases in my editorial corespondence with various people in which I
referred to a future article as a certainty, and then it never came out
in the magazine.
Mr. SoTjRwiNE. You were not in this conference discussing Asiaticus
at all ; is that your statement ?
Mr. Lattimore. To the best of my knowledge and recollection, the
question of Asiaticus never came up.
Mr. Sourwine. Wlio is By water ?
Mr. Lattimore. Hector Bywater — I am not certain whether he was
British or American. He, in the 1930's, was more or less the Hanson
Baldwin of his time. He was a writer, especially on naval strategy.
Mr. Sourwine. Was he pro-Communist, anti-Communist, conserva-
tive, liberal ?
Mr. Lattimore. I would say conservative.
Mr. Sourwine. Have you looked at the last page of this memoran-
dum which has been shown you ?
Mr. Lattimore. No ; I haven't.
The Chairman. Have we a photostatic copy ?
Mr. Sourwine. What we have here is typed. We can give him the
photostatic copy if he prefers.
You have the photostatic copy there if you wish ?
Mr. Lattimore. The last page ?
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3155
Mr. SouRwiNE. Tlie last page. And look at the third paragraph
from the end of the page. Will you read that paragraph aloud,
please?
Mr. Morris. Will you identify Mr. Motiliev, Mr. Lattimore, too?
Mr. Lattimore. Mr. Motiliev was the head of the Soviet council.
Motiliev made the following proposals as to organization of the magazine: (a)
The leading article should always expr.ess the opinion of a definite council. It is
customary to have the leading article more or less official. (6) Articles by
unknown and irresponsible writers should not be published on important ques-
tions. But there should be articles by leading personalities who are of interest,
no matter what they represent; e. g. By water and Asiaticus. (c) There should
not be criticism of books and opinions of the leading personalities of the various
member countries. It is unnecessary to have such criticism ; it is not part of
the work of the IPR, and it embarrasses the members of the councils.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Wliat magazine was referred to there?
Mr. Lattimore. He was referring to Pacific Affairs.
Mr. SouKwiNE. He was referring to Asiaticus, too ; wasn't he ?
]Mr. Lattimore. He also refers to Asiaticus.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Having refreshed your memory by reading that
paragraph what do you say now about whether Asiaticus was discussed
at that conference ?
Mr. Lattimore. Mt. Motiliev may have brought up the subject of
Asiaticus.
The Chairman. Then he was discussed at the conference; is that
right ?
Mr. Lattimore. He was discussed by Mr. Motiliev.
Mr. SoTjRwiNE. Can you say, Mr. Lattimore, whether you identified
to these gentlemen who were at the conference the Communist writer
to whom you referred, who was to have an article in the Pacific
Affairs?
Mr. Lattlmore. No ; I don't believe I did.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you not identify him as Asiaticus ?
Mr. Lattimore. Not to my recollection.
Senator Ferguson. Could I ask a question ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Ferguson. Could there be any other author in that particu-
lar magazine which was the one published after you were in Moscow
that could have been the Communist you were talking about ?
Mr. Latitmore. Senator Ferguson, this is referring back to the
conversation in 1936
The Chairman. Answer that question.
Mr. Lattimore (continuing). And my memory is necessarily
The Chairman. Look at the magazine and answer the question.
Senator Ferguson. And if there are any others that would be in a
class of being a Communist outside of the one we have been talking
about.
Mr. Lattimore. I do not think Senator Ferguson, that this article
to which you have referred, the Asiaticus article, or any other article
in that issue, could be referred to as Communist.
The Chairman. That is not the question. That is not the question
at all. Strike that answer, Mr. Reporter, and read the question to the
witness.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
Senator Ferguson. We were talking about Asiaticus. You say
it is not him. Is there any other that it could be ?
3156 INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS
Mr. Lattimore. May I amend my answer, tlien, to say that it is not
he or any other.
The C [I AIRMAN. All right.
Senator Ferguson. Today, do you believe that Asiaticiis was a
Coiumiinist (
Mr. LArriMORE. Today, according to the best of my knowledge, I
believe he very likely was. I don't know of my own knowledge.
Senator Ferguson. You qualify it by "very likely." You would
not say he was i
Mr. Lattimore. Not of my personal knowledge ; no.
Senator Ferguson. From anything that you have read ?
Mr. La'itimore. I have read other people's opinions, and my opinion
would be second-hand.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Lattimore, do you remember the context of the
page that I sliowed you of that article ? You have it there before you.
Will you look at it again and tell me whether there is an;5^'one else on
that page whom you now know or believe to have been a Communist?
Mr. Lattimore. The top name on the list is Harriet Moore, who has
refused to answer the question whether she was ever a Communist;
and, therefore, it would now be my supposition that she probably
was.
Mr. Sourwine. And were you referring to Harriet INIoore in this
conference in Moscow when you spoke of a Communist writer who was
to have an article in Pacific Affairs^
Mr. Lattimore. No.
Mr. Sourwine. Is there any other person on that table of contents
listed as an author of an article who is now known to you or believed
b}' you to have been a Connnunist '^
Mr. Lat-timore. There is nobody there known to me or believed by
me to be a Connnunist, with the exception of Harriet Moore, and I
am perfectly willing to accept Asiaticus as a Communist. But I don't
know it of my own knowledge.
Mr. Sourwine. Then is it true, Mr. Lattimore, that, on the basis of
what you know or believe now, that article by Asiaticus meets the
description which you gave in the Moscow conference of an article
which you said was to be in the next issue of Pacific Affiairs?
Mr. LAnTMORE. I don't believe this Asiaticus article meets the
description.
Mr. Sourwine. Now, you now believe Asiaticus to be or to have
been a Communist, is that right?
Mr. Lattok^je. Very likely; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. He did not represent the Soviet council; did he?
Mr. La'itimore. No; he didn't.
Mr. Sourwine. This was a leading article; was it not?
Mr. LA'rnMORE. It was one of the main articles. Technically,
the leading ai'ticle is the first article in any issue, and I don't think
we refer to subsequent articles.
The Chairman. Get the answer.
Mr. Lattimore. In that sense, it was not a leading article. The
leading article is always the first one.
The Chairman. He did not ask you for the sense. Was it or was it
not a leading article? It is very easy to answer that question.
Mr. Laitimore. T believe I am correct. Senator, in saying it was
not a leading article.
INSTITUTE OF PACIFIC RELATIONS 3157
Mr. SouRWiNE. Where did it appear in the magazine?
Mr. Lati'imore. Second space.
Mr. SouRwiNE. How much space was devoted to the first-place ar-
ticle?
Mr. Lattimore. Page 15'7 to page 165, about eight pages.
Mr. SouRwiNE. How much space was devoted to the Asiaticus ar-
ticle?
Mr. Lattimore. 165 to 177. That would be about 12 pages.
JSIr. SouRwixE. Was there any article in the magazine in greater
length than the xVsiaticus article?
Mr. Lattimore. Yes.
Mr. v'^GTjRwiNE. What was that ?
Mr. Lattimore. An article by Guenther Stein, the title of which is
"Through the Eyes of a Japanese Newspaper Reader" ; and, without
looking it up, I believe it is a review of the Japanese press.
Mr. Morris. Is that the same Guenther Stein who was associated
with the Sorge espionage ring?
Mr. Lai-timore. I do not know that he was associated with the
Sorge ring.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did this article represent a personal opinion, Mr.
Lattimore i
Mr. Lattimore. Which article?
Mr. S;)URwixE. The article by Asiaticus.
Mr. Lattimore. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr. SoURWixE. AVas this article antagonistic to the British council?
Mr. Lattimore. The British council criticized it; yes.
Mr. SouRWiNE. And you state, however, that it was not antagonistic
to the Chinese council ; is that correct?
Mr. Lattimore. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Sourwine. And it is on that basis that 3^011 say that the article,
even on the basis that you now know, does not, in your opinion, meet
your description here of the article that you thought would be printed
in Pacific Alfairs?
Mr. Lattimore. Partly that, and partly my recollection that in
1986 we were trying to get hold of a Communist Chinese contribution.
Mr. Sourwine. I would like to ask this : When Motiliev
Mr. Morris. You say you were trying to get in touch with them ?
Mr. Lattimore. We were trying to get hold of a Chinese Commu-
nist article.
The Chairman. You stated that now on three or four occasions.
Mr. Lattimore. In 11);>(), that was good editing, in my opinion.
Mr. Sourwine. AVhen Motiliev spoke of Bywater and Asiaticus, did
you understand him as using the two names as antithetical, as in any
sense being opposite poles of opinion or approach?
JNIr. Lattimore. Not necessarily opposite poles.
IMr. Sourwine. He said there should be articles by leading person-
al 
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